Dunkirk... It´s a film to watch standing up w/ a hand on the heart.

[Matthew J]

Tell that to youngsters in eastern europe and see the response.. or NIcaragua, a leftist country where a family controls power for decades thru fale elections where the oposition is banned.
There is the mythical left and the real one.

As opposed to wonderful conservative Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia? And how about the youngsters from Pinochet's Chile? Or the youngsters from military dictatorships in Argentina and Brasil? And, you know, Nicaragua's got nothing on the right leaning governments in Guatemala and Honduras.

[chasea]

This site is extra. Bikes are lit fam.

[Scott G.]

Because.. it´s the finest in cinema directing. It´s the finest in reproducing life experiences w/ image and music.
It´s also guided by conservative thinking where men are defined by character... not by how we understand politics or economics but how we react under pressure, under fire.

Or save $13 and watch "Mrs. Miniver" on TCM, made in 1942.

[colker]

As opposed to wonderful conservative Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Russia? And how about the youngsters from Pinochet's Chile? Or the youngsters from military dictatorships in Argentina and Brasil? And, you know, Nicaragua's got nothing on the right leaning governments in Guatemala and Honduras.

As opposed to contemporary conservative Chile, Colombia or France.
NOw find us a contemporary leftist regime that has not gone authoritarian, corrupt and bankrupt. Brasil´s Left destroyed the whoole of our energy sector while feeding a record breaking cleptocracy for 13 years till they were impeached out of power. Angola where people are miserable while dictator´s daughter is one of the world´s biggest fortune. NOt to mention Venezuela that now is basically a military dictatorship in bed w/ coke cartels.
Portugal is socialist but only on their parlament while still keeping conservative economic fiscal control. It´s west europe and none of the communist BS that still rules latin america and africa goes on there.
The Left in it´s core is anti liberal democracy and sees persinal freedoms as a capitalist illusion.
I would like to see those who praise the left while leaving in advanced wealthy liberal democracies, stand the misery of never being able to travel out of their country.. like cubans.
Btw.. turkey is turning into a populist authoritarian regime that has nothing to do w/ conservative thinking. Turkey is persecuting businessess: since when this is conservative thinking?? It has much more in common w/ leftist populism than conservative open market societies.

[colker]

And, you know, Nicaragua's got nothing on the right leaning governments in Guatemala and Honduras.

And yet it housed a meeting of the latin american left last month when the president of the biggest brazilian leftist party declared their unconditional support to the family of oligarchs who rule the country AND to the repression led by the venezuelan army/ militias against dissent.
The Left said those nations are an OK when it comes to civil rights.

[Matthew J]

Btw.. turkey is turning into a populist authoritarian regime that has nothing to do w/ conservative thinking. Turkey is persecuting businessess: since when this is conservative thinking?? It has much more in common w/ leftist populism than conservative open market societies.

Bull shit. Turkey is becoming an intolerant religious dictatorship. Liberal governments do not promote religion.

[Matthew J]

The Left said those nations are an OK when it comes to civil rights.

Again, there is nothing going on in Nicaragua that is challenging Guatemala and Honduras for the bottom.

[colker]

Bull shit. Turkey is becoming an intolerant religious dictatorship. Liberal governments do not promote religion.

And where does intolerant religious dictatorship persecuting business fit on what the left calls "neo liberal capitalism"? NOwhere.
Populist dictatorships w/ religious ideologies could not be more distant from contemporary conservative philosophy which is about principle and personal freedom.

[davids]

The Left in it´s core is anti liberal democracy and sees persinal freedoms as a capitalist illusion.

This is both absurd and hilariously wrongheaded.

Remember back when this was a thread about a movie? Or did I misunderstand your intentions?

[mzilliox]

Thanks for the Pootie Tang recommendation.

In what posture should I be watching it?

some form of floating up high perhaps? certainly not well planted on the ground, and most certainly not while thinking about or discussing what is and isn't liberal or conservative thinking.

[colker]

This is both absurd and hilariously wrongheaded.

Remember back when this was a thread about a movie? Or did I misunderstand your intentions?

Threads evolve. Why not?

You think it´s absurd? Just read some speeches from Stalin, Lenin, Fidel and other big names from the Left in action. Stalin says loud and clear that "personal freedoms" were an illusion created by capitalist propaganda. And then procceeded to vanish w/ those freedoms. Stalin is not the Left?

Now tell me.. if that´s absurd and hillariously wrongheaded how come cubans could not travel unless on oficial missions? This is not too far away in the past. This was happening ten yrs ago.

We can still talk about the movie though.

[colker]

This is both absurd and hilariously wrongheaded.

Remember back when this was a thread about a movie? Or did I misunderstand your intentions?

What´s absurd is embracing the left on a consummer forum! Defending socialist regimes where no one could buy anything other than official or black market while on other threads we talk about carbon x steel x titanium, campy x sram x shimano. NOw this is hillarious.

[davids]

Threads evolve. Why not?

You think it´s absurd? Just read some speeches from Stalin, Lenin, Fidel and other big names from the Left in action. Stalin says loud and clear that "personal freedoms" were an illusion created by capitalist propaganda. And then procceeded to vanish w/ those freedoms. Stalin is not the Left?

Now tell me.. if that´s absurd and hillariously wrongheaded how come cubans could not travel unless on oficial missions? This is not too far away in the past. This was happening ten yrs ago.

We can still talk about the movie though.

I see.

Your definition of "the left" begins with Lenin and ends with Castro. Mine begins with John Locke. Or maybe the Mishnah*.


*This is a joke, kind of. But Talmudic Judaism devotes a lot of energy to discussions of proper behavior towards others. My tradition doesn't spend much effort on propping individual freedoms.

What´s absurd is embracing the left on a consummer forum! Defending socialist regimes where no one could buy anything other than official or black market while on other threads we talk about carbon x steel x titanium, campy x sram x shimano. NOw this is hillarious.

And where, other than in your mind, is this happening?


p.s. Pootie Tang on Amazon Prime! Whoo hoo!

[colker]

I see.

Your definition of "the left" begins with Lenin and ends with Castro. Mine begins with John Locke. Or maybe the Mishnah*.


*This is a joke, kind of. But Talmudic Judaism devotes a lot of energy to discussions of proper behavior towards others. My tradition doesn't spend much effort on propping individual freedoms.



And where, other than in your mind, is this happening?


p.s. Pootie Tang on Amazon Prime! Whoo hoo!

The left begins in the french congress or was it the english? where the geographically speaking left side would fight the right side.
The left as we know, began w/ the communist manifesto and later developed in The Capital, 18th of Brumary and German Ideology.. the Left as an action movement illuminated by political science.
Americans call their left, Liberal, while we in south america call the right conservative capitalism, Liberal .
What i call conservative is Roger Scruton, Hayek and other contemporary writers. What you guys are calling conservative is populist authoritarian religious fundamentalism.

[woodworker]

Colker,

Not to pick on you, and at the risk of being dismissed by some as an effete intellectual, I think that you need to define your terms.

The "Left" comprises many distinct lines of thought, often in conflict with one another. I don't think that liberal socialism as it is practiced in Western Europe bears any resemblance to Marxism or folks who co-opted that amorphous mantle to further a dictatorship, like Stalin. There are plenty of countries that practice economic socialism that are very liberal in terms of personal freedoms--arguably more so than the U.S.

I would be reluctant, as well, to lump all conservatives together as the "Right." There are economic conservatives and social conservatives. They often have little in common. I consider myself to the former but have difficulty finding any common ground with the latter.

A binary analysis doesn't move the discussion forward.

[woodworker]

The left begins in the french congress or was it the english? where the geographically speaking left side would fight the right side.
The left as we know, began w/ the communist manifesto and later developed in The Capital, 18th of Brumary and German Ideology.. the Left as an action movement illuminated by political science.
Americans call their left, Liberal, while we in south america call the right conservative capitalism, Liberal .
What i call conservative is Roger Scruton, Hayek and other contemporary writers. What you guys are calling conservative is populist authoritarian religious fundamentalism.

Well, you beat me to it--in a way. The problem, then, is that I don't agree with your definitions, or your view as to how the doctrines and labels developed.

But it's a start I guess.

[colker]

Colker,

Not to pick on you, and at the risk of being dismissed by some as an effete intellectual, I think that you need to define your terms.

The "Left" comprises many distinct lines of thought, often in conflict with one another. .

Actually that pretty much defines the right while the Left has more strategy and ways to go over internal dissent in order to conquer a political position. real politik.
Since Euro comunism, an effort to dismiss the stalin years and the USSR as representatives of the Left took place. Sure.. BUt how do you call the left in charge in latin America and Africa? They are anti capitalists and call themselves leftists. They even call themselves democrats while supprting Maduro when he jails the oposition. The international left is what it is. It is supposed to be international and have a common enemy: capitalism. Ridiculous ... but that´s how it is still played.

[jclay]

Colker,

Not to pick on you, and at the risk of being dismissed by some as an effete intellectual, I think that you need to define your terms.

The "Left" comprises many distinct lines of thought, often in conflict with one another. I don't think that liberal socialism as it is practiced in Western Europe bears any resemblance to Marxism or folks who co-opted that amorphous mantle to further a dictatorship, like Stalin. There are plenty of countries that practice economic socialism that are very liberal in terms of personal freedoms--arguably more so than the U.S.

I would be reluctant, as well, to lump all conservatives together as the "Right." There are economic conservatives and social conservatives. They often have little in common. I consider myself to the former but have difficulty finding any common ground with the latter.

A binary analysis doesn't move the discussion forward.

THANK YOU Woodworker!!!! I was about to wade into this, just a little bit, but you saved me the trouble. You nailed it as well as could be done in eight modest sentences.

[chasea]

This is both absurd and hilariously wrongheaded.

Remember back when this was a thread about a movie? Or did I misunderstand your intentions?

I think his intentions are clear not only in his OP, but in most of his posts.

[woodworker]

THANK YOU Woodworker!!!! I was about to wade into this, just a little bit, but you saved me the trouble. You nailed it as well as could be done in eight modest sentences.

No problem. Funny, but I was thinking about this over lunch (West Coast time), and I was wondering whether it might be better to just talk about specific policies. When we start with the labels "left" and "right," it's easy to avoid the policy disagreement in favor of citing a deplorable individual and putting him (or her) on the other side of the ledger. Throwing Stalin at the other side is an easy way out.

Back to bikes (or movies) I guess.