Who uses brass for lugs?

[claritycycler]

Curious about the number(%) of builders that use brass for lug brazing, any guesstimates? Or how many use brass/silver in combination on frames. Brass for bottle braze-ons? Brass is not widely used(except for fillets) because of perceived superiority of silver or....?

thanks, Brian

[Andrew R Stewart]

No pro here but a long time brass/bronze user. About half the lugs I do call for it. Gaps and angles with really small bikes can be hard to keep within silver's tolerances.

Silver's "superiority" is a myth created by the early builders of this modern era (meaning 1970s to current times). Or maybe created by marketing, grasping for a differentiation from the Euro standards of the time. So many more lugged frames have been done with brass/bronze then silver and we don't see massive failure in them. Andy

[Eric Estlund]

I don't only use bronze, but I use it frequently for lugged builds.

[claritycycler]

I don't only use bronze, but I use it frequently for lugged builds.

Yeah Eric, I know you do, perusing your Flicker site got me thinking who else uses bronze/brass for their builds(not including dropouts). Your work is always a pleasure to see.

Andy, I am in 100% with you on this: "Silver's "superiority" is a myth created by the early builders of this modern era (meaning 1970s to current times). Or maybe created by marketing....".
I can't think of any reason other than marketing; "keeping up with the Joneses" so to speak, "other builders use silver so I better if I want to keep my market share" mentality. Well I guess silver may be somewhat faster in terms of tube heating, or better if lug to tube tolerances are tight, but I don't know why silver is so dominant.

Still waiting to learn who(other than Eric and Andy) uses brass, and what issues brass presents that keep it from widespread use.

thanks, Brian

[e-RICHIE]

Yeah Eric, I know you do, perusing your Flicker site got me thinking who else uses bronze/brass for their builds(not including dropouts). Your work is always a pleasure to see.

Andy, I am in 100% with you on this: "Silver's "superiority" is a myth created by the early builders of this modern era (meaning 1970s to current times). Or maybe created by marketing....".
I can't think of any reason other than marketing; "keeping up with the Joneses" so to speak, "other builders use silver so I better if I want to keep my market share" mentality. Well I guess silver may be somewhat faster in terms of tube heating, or better if lug to tube tolerances are tight, but I don't know why silver is so dominant.

Still waiting to learn who(other than Eric and Andy) uses brass, and what issues brass presents that keep it from widespread use.

thanks, Brian

The only issue that keep it (brass) from widespread use is that the niche has been reduced to a dot in contrast to what it was before nonferrous materials and frames made in a waffle iron became ubiquitous. I'm serious. Those legions of makers and shops who once populated the landscape, and who mastered brazing without the need to consider filler material - these people no longer go to the workbench each day after breakfast.

[Eric Estlund]

Clean up for sloppy brazing is easier with silver. That's not a condemnation, but certainly a reason. Some us builders toted it's superiority in marketing, and I think that became accepted. Brent Steelman was/is an amazing bronze production brazer. Andy at Strawberry still uses it predominantly.

[jclay]

I don't only use bronze, but I use it frequently for lugged builds.

Eric - Did you ring braze the lug in that photo?

[Eric Estlund]

Nope. Face fed. I don't do much ring brazing of lugs (though I use it elsewhere).

[Doug Fattic]

I learned to build frames with brass in England years ago. I use silver now. I've learned from teaching framebuilding classes that most beginners do better learning to build with silver. Brass melts at 1600 degrees F and silver around 1200. That extra heat can cause problems for those starting out because they haven't learned how to control both hands to work well together yet. Unevenly applied heat can warp alignment. Untrained hands can also easily overheat a joint. It can only take a second or two for the steel to go from acceptable red to orange or even brighter that damages the metal. When using silver and they mistakenly get the joint to too hot and it turns a red color and they then back off immediately, nothing terrible happened.

As Andy has noted, brass works better when lugs have to be blacksmithed to fit the design because it fills gaps better. It is also much cheaper. However the $20 it costs to braze a frame with silver is not much in comparison to the total cost and time it takes to make a frame.