We have officially become inured to mass shootings.

[mzilliox]

It is not my intent to move goal posts or to distract from the discussion about gun policy in the United States. But since some have voiced concern that this thread is outliving its usefulness, I'd like to augment the discussion with a question. It is asked in good faith, with no agenda, and out of genuine curiosity about how Salonistas feel. If you can't/won't meet me halfway by answering/engaging in good faith, please don't expect the courtesy of a response.

I suspect we will all disagree about the proper allocation of blame between the availability of high-capacity semi-automatic firearms and the organisms who utilize them to slaughter innocents. I further suspect no staunch gun control advocate believes the immediate removal of all guns from all people would result in a year with zero homicides, and that no staunch gun rights advocate believes that, for example, the piece of shit in Las Vegas could have been as lethal with a shotgun designed for skeet shooting instead of a bumpstock-equipped semi-auto (gun owners: do you really believe he could have killed 58 people with an over/under 12 gauge?). [Short sidebar: is there no one willing to praise President Trump's Department of Justice for administratively banning bump stocks?]

That wasn't the question. This is: What is it about modern American society that has contributed to the escalation in both severity and frequency of these attacks?

I AM NOT going all "guns don't kill people, people kill people" on you, I swear. I'm simply noting a timeline: Charles Whitman, then...Columbine? I vaguely remember a McDonald's shooting sometime around (and maybe near) the LA Olympic Games, and there was the North Hollywood Bank shoot-out in 1997* (which is hard to categorize as a mass shooting; 2000 rounds were fired (~650 of those by police), and the only two dead were bank robbers...and I'm glad they aren't with us anymore, and the weapons the robbers used were illegally converted to fully-automatic, i.e. already banned).

So if we say Whitman in '69, McDonald's in CA (if I'm even remembering that correctly) around 1984, Columbine in 1999 - that's really exactly every 15 years. Now it seems these things happen every 15 weeks (or even days). I know there are more Ar-15s in private hands, and by a huge factor, but what has happened to make people (oh, let's just say it: MEN) want to use them?

Tangentially related question: if there were no high-capacity magazines in private hands, would these events be less frequent? I think honest people have to say they'd be less severe (every life matters, but I mean in terms of aggregate carnage). Some guy shot some guy in Richmond today, but you didn't hear about it. Are these nitwits going for high body counts to be newsworthy?




*I attribute the recent (and rapid) "militarization" of police departments to this event, or at least suggest the justification for it began with this event.


Edited to add: I know reforming and enforcing gun laws is part of the solution. What are the other parts? What else can be done (fuck that: what else can we do) to make this better?

this is what we should be talking about and those clean suits should be working on.

my take:

the USA as a country is a bully, fine with using high levels of force to back up what we think is right, or our right, or whatever we say. i think this attitude extends to the citizens. some citizen think they have a right to enforce their opinions with deadly force, because after all, they are right, the USA is right, they are like the USA, how can that be bad?

we as a culture worship money more than anything else. because of this, there is desperation to obtain more and more money, and those without money are not behaving rationally, period.

we as a culture dont educate our population very well. people are fixated on the second amendment but dont actually know or care about any of the other rights and customs and norms. for instance, how many people do you know who think of themselves as ultimate patriots but disgrace the flag by flying it all ripped up on their pickup truck, or even worse, wrap a version of it around their body?

we as a culture are more entitled than others. go live in other places, see how they think and deal with issues. we expect everything all the time right now and when we dont get that we react, often poorly.

we are a fearful bunch, overly suspicious of one another, considering we consider ourselves civil and 1st world, and the most bestest nation on earth. if we actually believed that, why would we be so afraid of one another?

lastly, we have a sick relationship to guns. we take them out drinking with us, we take them for rides in our cars, we dance with them, we spend hours cleaning them and drooling on them, and we defend them as though the gun itself has a right of its own. we are one of the few places insane enough to actually believe that being born means you should be able to use guns. very few humans outside of the USA feel the same way as us. we have a unique view on how important a gun is to civil society. most civil societies see the gun as something that disrupts civility, not adds to it.

we as a culture have an elevated view of how special and unique we are and we apply this reasoning to our special relationship with guns. folks often like to cite our history as why we have guns and others dont. i dont get thata at all, as it makes no sense.

basically, i think we are cultural teenage jerks, thinking we deserve everything, not yet understanding (like some adults come to), that shiny things, fast cars, and fake boobs are actually pretty mundane, exciting but shallow. some folks will never outgrow the adoration of these things, while some come to realize there afre much more rich things to enjoy in a life well spent.

what do we do? keep talking about things and making small changes until we are civilized enough to overcome our teenage jerk phase. we grow the fuck up
what we dont do is buy more fucking guns, exacerbating a problem. what we dont do is fight the problem with a bigger version of the problem. what we do is vote better, be more honest with ourselves about what our needs are vs what we fantasize about and just really like a lot. what we do is we realize that because something is legal, or we have the right to do something, doesnt make that something the right thing to do. what we dont do is keep arguing on behalf of guns and against human lives. what we dont do is exactly the same thing over and over and over. we act like decent humans and make hard choices. we stop living in constant fear.

otherwise we sit back and accept that we are a place with a very unique and terrible problem. a

we stop acting like barbarians discussing nuances of how someone got murdered so nonchalantly.

what are your thoughts?

[bigbill]

If I had a plan like that my wife would be implementing her plan. We’d all be moving somewhere I didn’t feel a need for a plan.

I'm a planner, I think things through beforehand. Since you didn't quote my entire post, I think the part about not having anything worth protecting except myself is important. I don't intend to confront an intruder, I'll wait for the police and only defend myself if I'm forced to inside my house. I live in NW AZ, heroin and meth are prevalent here and most crime committed by folks supporting their habits. It's not gang related or a theft ring, it's people stealing what they can to support a habit. Desperate people doing desperate things while under the influence of drugs. That's the main reason for not confronting them, the reason the master bedroom has a lock and the front door has a double keyed deadbolt. The gun is not plan A, it's more along the lines of plan C or D.

[Corso]

If there is no gun involved then there is no direct interaction between him and the thieves and so there is no altercation.

Oh, that's right Rob, I forget that you know everything.

Lets rebuild, shall we?
Man hears and see's commotion around his car.
Man walks out to investigate (without gun). As it's what most normal people would do on their own property.
Kid moves towards man holding knife (assuming man is not carrying a gun).

So take out the gun, and you have what outcome?

You assume it's only the gun that gave the old man the confidence to go outdoors. I'm assuming he'd go anyway.

Neither of us know all the facts, so please stop making your declarations as "fact". It's gets annoying and doesn't help this discussion.

[sk_tle]

the USA as a country is a bully, fine with using high levels of force to back up what we think is right, or our right, or whatever we say. i think this attitude extends to the citizens. some citizen think they have a right to enforce their opinions with deadly force, because after all, they are right, the USA is right, they are like the USA, how can that be bad?

we as a culture worship money more than anything else.

I usually remains quiet about it but since it is a us guy raising the topic. I'm always uncomfortable when I see all these posts on veteran's day with a "thank you for your service" like their job had been to protect their country.

The reality is they served a political agenda that use firepower and fear to gain an economical edge over both adversaries and so called allies (including the countries I am living in).

A veteran basically did the job of a terrorist. Sometimes indirectly, but still. Not something deserving praises.

[Corso]

I usually remains quiet about it but since it is a us guy raising the topic. I'm always uncomfortable when I see all these posts on veteran's day with a "thank you for your service" like their job had been to protect their country.

The reality is they served a political agenda that use firepower and fear to gain an economical edge over both adversaries and so called allies (including the countries I am living in).

A veteran basically did the job of a terrorist. Sometimes indirectly, but still. Not something deserving praises.

I suggest you should have followed your own "usually remain quiet" advice.

Do you know haw many veterans here you possibly have offended?

To counter this insult, I'd like to sincerely THANK all of those who have served and those who have lost their lives doing so.

[Blue Jays]

"...I find your use of the racially charged word "thug" troubling. I don't know you. I don't know what your thoughts on race are. But using this word in such a connotation makes you sound racist..."

As a person of mixed African-American heritage, this is a highly offensive post.

[e-RICHIE]

I just logged in.

Bag a country if you must. Or its leadership. Or a political agenda.

But do NOT have a condescending opinion on the men who fought the wars.

That. Is. All.

[mzilliox]

to be fair, i appreciate those who have served, thats not what i meant at all. i appreciate them, i feel sorry for them, i hope they heal their mental wounds as well as their physical wounds. war just shows how humans have failed in using their brains. its senseless, it solves nothing, why did we invent gods and philosophy only to revert to killing one another over things we make up.
i also can understand sktles viewpoint and have no issues with it. they served, they are (should be) tougher than being offended by an internet statement of opinion.

lets all remember at the end of the day, the gun right thing is only a right because we made it that way. we can decide the opposite and it would be just as legitimate. after all, its just made up. there is no refuting that, its made up, a construct, as easily dissolved as respected. it only exists as long as culture gives it weight, its not a real thing.

[Blue Jays]

Thank goodness this innocent old man had the effective means to preserve his life in the face of overwhelming odds.
He tragically found himself pitted against a half-dozen known criminal thugs nearly a quarter his chronological age.
Poor guy walks onto his front porch to learn the source of noise and unknowingly finds himself entering a knife fight.

[murphy]

As a person of mixed African-American heritage, this is a highly offensive post.

I’m honestly not trying to be funny but how? I told you how I felt and how your use of a word came off to me. The majority of the time that word is used it is used as a replacement of the n word. I advised caution on the words you spoke. I told you I didn’t know you but described how it came off to me. I didn’t call you a racist (which I was very clear on).

[zachateseverything]

Oh, that's right Rob, I forget that you know everything.

Lets rebuild, shall we?
Man hears and see's commotion around his car.
Man walks out to investigate (without gun). As it's what most normal people would do on their own property.
Kid moves towards man holding knife (assuming man is not carrying a gun).

So take out the gun, and you have what outcome?

You assume it's only the gun that gave the old man the confidence to go outdoors. I'm assuming he'd go anyway.

Neither of us know all the facts, so please stop making your declarations as "fact". It's gets annoying and doesn't help this discussion.

If he heard and saw commotion around his car, late at night, he should stay inside and call the cops instead of "investigating." Escalation of a situation never ends well.

Similar logic. Your friend is drowning in your swimming pool. You don't immediately dive in to save him. You reach with a pole. You throw a ring or buoy. You don't go in after him because that puts another person at risk (you).

or, posting on the OT. engaging with certain posters only seems to result in head trauma.

[Blue Jays]

"...The majority of the time that word is used it is used as a replacement of the n word..."

Even vaguely intimating that longtime VSalon members (of mixed African-American heritage) as racist is unbecoming.

[murphy]

Even vaguely intimating that longtime VSalon members (of mixed African-American heritage) as racist is unbecoming.

I said I don’t know you so how would I know your ethnicity. And said you weren’t a racist to boot. I said you sounded racist because of your use of a word which has been a racist dog whistle for the n word for a long time.

Sounding racist and being racist are two different things Americans have trouble separating. I advised caution on your language. I stand by it.

[sk_tle]

I just logged in.

Bag a country if you must. Or its leadership. Or a political agenda.

But do NOT have a condescending opinion on the men who fought the wars.

That. Is. All.

It is not about offending, being condescending or insulting peoole, it is only about what you think about the centuries old superior orders concept.

My take is that adult people have all the information needed to figure out if their service is helping evil goals or not. In the context a country using voluntary draft such as the USA (which is something I praise compared to countries enforcing unvoluntarty conscription) one can always decide to not opt in. I'll add though that nothing is black or white so people can be misled.

[e-RICHIE]

It is not about offending, being condescending or insulting peoole, it is only about what you think about the centuries old superior orders concept.

My take is that adult people have all the information needed to figure out if their service is helping evil goals or not. In the context a country using voluntary draft such as the USA (which is something I praise compared to countries enforcing unvoluntarty conscription) one can always decide to not opt in.

I think only the veteran who served his country can know that. You can't. I certainly can't.

[jclay]

I don't like truncating discussions but this is losing focus and getting counter productive, so I am.

[thollandpe]

That wasn't the question. This is: What is it about modern American society that has contributed to the escalation in both severity and frequency of these attacks?

Here's one take, that we've steadily moved gun laws and regulations in a more lenient direction. "We" meaning our elected representatives, at the behest of the NRA and NAGR.

Frontline: How the Gun-Rights Lobby Won After Newtown

TH

[Blue Jays]

Terrific to see this meaningful OT forum discussion has been revisited and unlocked.

[Matthew Strongin]

It has generally been a very good discussion on a very important topic. I unlocked it to see that discussion continue.

[Blue Jays]

"...Terrific to see this meaningful OT forum discussion has been revisited and unlocked..."

"...Feel free to bow out if you don’t want to participate..."

Unsure why you would post that as a response to what I shared moments earlier.