What I've Noticed -

[todwil]

hey welder dude, did the lugs just seem like too much work?
YEE HAW Ride 'em cowboy
will I make to the eight second bell? (isn't it eight seconds for bulls?)
alright, welder dude who used to use lugs but has gone to the dark side of arc, i will now back off.
I am here to not only give you the poke with a sharp stick, welder dude, but to give some un-soloicited advice.

Yer welds look pretty good welder dude.
You will find that you can improve the fatigue life of the frame by making the head tube a bit (quite significantly actually) more well attached by:

Washing/figure eight the welds where the HT/TT crotch at the top is, and the HT/DT at the bottom is. To make it even better, which should be used on all MTB frames, where the main plane of the frame intersects the the HT/TT/DT wash, or figure eight, or which method you prefer the welds in these areas. This has been proven to significantly improve fatigue life. I won't say what percentage but it is significant. These frames usually break at the HT/DT or HT/TT areas first, therefore this method should be employed here first.

Wow they make bigger capree's it sounds like yours a wee bit snug.......right?
So your lugged frames different/better because you polish them from right to left and others go left to right.
And the shorelines are painted silver BECAUSE everyone who's anyone knows that frames ride better than the ones painted red. Or that's what you were taught at pipe fitters.......I mean framebuiders I've suffered so I'm better class.
Some of you guys slay me.......so it's community till commerce then it's elitist over competition got it thanx!


Todd

[devlin]

With all due respect (to Rich) and I am listening and hearing what you are saying ( don't worry I've been constantly thinking about this thread for days now), is that you are assuming at what rate I can absorb the information and recreate with my own hands. I understand you don't know me from a bar of soap so can only comment on the average. You even said in your own thread that you were slow on the uptake.

I remember mentioning in a thread a few years back about living in Australia and having a lack of local resources to utilise and that I would have to learn in isolation. I was told by a prominant frame builder (I for the life of me can't remember who but at the time I was surprised at the comment) that I should just do it then. Now, I'm being told that I shouldn't and that the ONLY way I'll be a great frame builder is if I go and file a 1000 chain stays and braze a million water bottle bosses.

..............!!!!

[Will Neide]

Most successful one man shops are manned by opinionated, strong willed, experienced individuals.

Makes it hard to find a consensus, but is also why we survive.

Find common ground and embrace it, recognize we are different and accept each for who they are.

r

Professionalism doesn't end at once it hits one man shops.

[zank]

Sean, do your thing man.

[Will Neide]

Anybody who can weld bicycle tubing well is a highly skilled person and not deserving of being tarred with your rather broad and disparaging brush. I don't think you know enough about the individuals to make such a statement. I view them as craftspeople.

Perhaps my usage of terms were a bit off and merriam would agree with your definition (skilled work with hands). I was approaching the "craft" from an artisan/creative outlet. Wiki (as useful a source as it can be) would somewhat support my definition. It is not my intent in any way to belittle the laborer, and the fact they are a laborer or welder, or whatever term one may choose to apply to that type of work, isn't indicative of what their potential may be.

Also, note that Wiki simply puts the heirarchy as laborer, tradesman, and then professional.

[e-RICHIE]

With all due respect (to Rich) and I am listening and hearing what you are saying ( don't worry I've been constantly thinking about this thread for days now), is that you are assuming at what rate I can absorb the information and recreate with my own hands. I understand you don't know me from a bar of soap so can only comment on the average. You even said in your own thread that you were slow on the uptake.

I remember mentioning in a thread a few years back about living in Australia and having a lack of local resources to utilise and that I would have to learn in isolation. I was told by a prominant frame builder (I for the life of me can't remember who but at the time I was surprised at the comment) that I should just do it then. Now, I'm being told that I shouldn't and that the ONLY way I'll be a great frame builder is if I go and file a 1000 chain stays and braze a million water bottle bosses.

..............!!!!

I'm trying to help you become a framebuilder, which takes practice and time. If your desire is to build a frame, I can answer questions that speed up that learning curve, too. The point being these are two distinct pursuits.

[devlin]

I am pursuing the former. I've already done the latter.

[Will Neide]

I have to disagree. We all descend from these workers in one way, shape, or form. We may appear to be craftsmen, and some of us actually do work that could be seen as craft. But we're fabricators first and foremost. The folks you mention (me, Zanks, others...) can only dream of having the innate skills that come from laboring all day, every day, at factories that make bicycle frames. I envy these cats. I wish I had the depth of experience they had. But, I wouldn't trade what I have to get it. However, I did the 1972 equivalent of it when I bought a one way ticket to England to see what the trade was about. As I mentioned already, though I did the requisite work at a production frame shop, and also made hundreds before a single one had my name on one, I started too soon. And, I think nearly everyone in Y2K starts too soon as well.

This is a well thought out and a great post at pointing out the inaccuracies in my response.

[e-RICHIE]

I am pursuing the former. I've already done the latter.

Well, you know where I stand with respect to routine and repetition, and the need to lose the romantic notions. In my opinion, you're looking for a shortcut, or an open window, that doesn't exist. Good luck regardless. I mean that.

[todwil]

In Japan, one training to be a sushi chef can be in training for years before they are allowed to start the process of cooking rice.

And the "Flying Pigeon" has been made since 1959 or something like that.....so sometimes practice doesn't make perfect!!

[devlin]

Well, you know where I stand with respect to routine and repetition, and the need to lose the romantic notions. In my opinion, you're looking for a shortcut, or an open window, that doesn't exist. Good luck regardless. I mean that.

I have no romantic notions, well maybe a little, but I am realistic about what's in front of me. I have no notions of climbing in the top floor window or even the first floor but will gladly take any chance to get into the ground floor. No shortcuts but making use of the resources and opportunities in front of me. I have one of the finest lug builders in the same city and he has been incredibly generous with his time and knowledge. I don't take that lightly.

Thank you

[ABiCi]

I have a question that for most on here will only be able to answer from their own perspective. My own mind thinks I'd have to ask this elsewhere.

Would any of the established builders like to take on a trainee for say 6 months. I realise this is not a case where at the end of 6 months I would circumvent years of experience but I feel in 6 months I could learn a crap load that would put me in a much better position. Only I know what I'm capable of and able to understand and with a few frames already under my belt I have an understanding of what's required to build a functional frame. If I could get myself to the US and take a minimal wage and board with someone, would any of the builders want or care to do it? This is a serious question and if I knew that avenue was open to me I'd act on it. (Going back on my previous statement of not leaving here. But 6 months would go by quick)

I do understand, as mentioned earlier, that most builders are one man one frame at a time and can't afford to do this and that the customer is also not getting 100% of the builders time which is a big factor in picking your frames maker.

Second question. Can we make a list of the production companies in the US so I can approach them as well?

One option that might be available would be to talk to Doug Fattic about heading over to the Ukraine with him. I know he has taken less experienced builders with him in the past to help on his project making frames over there (Herbie Helm has been with him, and a young guy called Jesse, who was around the workshop when I was there last year, was due to go with him at the end of 2014). My impression is that it is a bit more "production" in scope/style than you would find in most of the one man shops around. Last year I travelled over to do his class and I've kept the Ukraine option in the back of my mind as something I might ask him about in a year or so depending on where my life/career trajectory goes. And whether he would think I was good enough to be useful too, I guess!

I can't imagine there is much chance of an opportunity like that in Australia.

[devlin]

That is a superb suggestion.

[e-RICHIE]

That is a superb suggestion.

Agreed. It would be a valuable experience for you and speed up the learning curve.

[John Durning]

I was just reading The Bicycle Artisans by Will Jones and I wonder how many of the framebuilders you're talking about made it into this book. I recognise quite a few of the names from this forum but the majority of businesses seem to have only been in operating for five years or less.

One thing that really made me question the criteria for entry to the book was the inclusion of Mission Bicycles. My understanding was that they imported straight gauge cromo track frames from Maxway in Taiwan and then sent them to the local powder coater. Then the customer got to choose the colour and components and that was the extent of the custom build.

[e-RICHIE]

When I post on Frame Forum, especially as an admin of the board, it's to help folks make a better frame. It's not to put them in business. That's a wider conversation that could never occur in 1s and 0s on a forum. The thread has taken many turns, and my interest in keeping it on track and related to my original post remains. I saw bad work, and it was bad work from a maker who was also teaching others, and I reacted.

My offer remains. If you have questions about how to do something, or where to source a part, or why one sequence may make more sense in the long run (or one path, for that matter...), you can send an email and the interaction will be personal rather than just some general bloviating on my part to folks I've never met, or whose intentions are all over the place.

My email is in an earlier reply to this thread.

[Crowemagnon]

Thankyou richard for reining the thread in, i appreciate that your intrest in keeping the standards high is genuine, so i will ask again (paraphrased from earlier post);

Please quantify for us so we can understand what you are saying, what video you are talking about, and what specifically did you see which was sub par?

Though it is clear you see sub-par work as a growing trend, or a pattern of 'builders', and this video may not be your penultimate example, it might plot a point on the graph making the trend that little bit clearer to see, understand, engage meaningfully with, and learn from...

i feel it should go without saying that offering critique is something we have already discussed, though we didnt really get where we needed to go..

[e-RICHIE]

Thankyou richard for reining the thread in, i appreciate that your intrest in keeping the standards high is genuine, so i will ask again (paraphrased from earlier post);

Please quantify for us so we can understand what you are saying, what video you are talking about, and what specifically did you see which was sub par?

Though it is clear you see sub-par work as a growing trend, or a pattern of 'builders', and this video may not be your penultimate example, it might plot a point on the graph making the trend that little bit clearer to see, understand, engage meaningfully with, and learn from...

i feel it should go without saying that offering critique is something we have already discussed, though we didnt really get where we needed to go..

Patrick - respectfully, I didn't reply when you first asked, and asking again is part of why I'm at wit's end when you asked now. I saw bad work. How bad? Bad brazing. Bad brazing procedures. Bad assembly wrt placing metal in the places that held said metal in place (that is, the fixturing process shown), bad reference points pertaining to how the work in question was articulated to the viewer. I could go on. My post was a reaction to what I saw, and I felt compelled to post about it. No way did i assume it would evolve into this multi-page discussion.

Part of the problem is that we (anyone who's in the trade and has answered questions since we all got online ?? years ago) have enabled this. We did by showing people what we did, and by answering questions from anyone who asked, and made it easier for a person from this generation to make a frame for himself. Again, no one was ever suggesting that all the answers, Flickr albums, and how-to threads were a tutorial for those eager to make a frame to turn the experience into a commercial one. But it has come to that. People have looked at pictures, or forum threads, or have taken a class - and began selling frames. And as I've written, they've done it unprepared and too soon. Folks want to hold my feet to the fire because I won't quantify how prepared one should be, or what "too soon" means. That comes with the territory.

[Doug Fattic]

One option that might be available would be to talk to Doug Fattic about heading over to the Ukraine with him...

I started a project to provide bicycles to pastors (and other service oriented people) 15 years ago in Ukraine. Our philosophy of assistance included the recipients be a model of the advantages of using bicycles to everyone in their community. We also wanted to spend as much of the money we raised in Ukraine as possible so it could help their economy (which is in horrible shape). Originally we worked with the XB3 bicycle company in the industrial city of Kharkov near the Russian border (nothing in my life has more interesting than that!) but complications lead us to build the frames ourselves. We ship over True Temper tubing and BB shells but the other pieces like the dropouts, fork crowns and kickstand plates are laser cut by a local Ukrainian company. A variety of my students and Ukrainians have built the frames. The shop is located in the back of a small college campus about 25km west of Kiev.

The bikes we make are basic transportation bicycles built to last (and they all have) and carry stuff. They are perfect for refining framebuilding skills. It would have been much easier to bring in boxed bikes from China but that would not have met our bigger objectives to help Ukraine (as much as possible) and have a way for continuing framebuilding education. Since the conflict with Russia over borders started last year the need for these bicycles in the eastern part of the country has gotten a lot more serious.

This humanitarian project while benefiting others has been good for my framebuilding class attendance too. Someone wanting to get the right start can help themselves and others at the same time. It’s a win/win.

[Will Neide]

Doug, could you please clear some space in your mailbox.

Thanks!