What I've Noticed -

[cicli polito]

My "first" frame, which was just three old lugged frames cut up and brazed back together, was "don't steal me" pink spray paint and also had the same letter stickers from office max. I keep it hanging up and still ride it every few years as a fixed wheel. The letters are long since gone. image.jpg

image.jpg

Edit: not sure why pictures are wonky, unable to fix them.

[jclay]

My problem with this discussion thread is that it is unlikely to include voices that haven’t made tons of frames but are in business anyway and still do a good job. Only some of them do inferior work.

The difference between the good the bad and mediocre is not based on how many frames they have made...It will be based on training, talent and attitude.

What experience does mostly is make one faster and more efficient. This increases the chances of profitability and whether or not one can make it as a business.

Of course there is a lot more to making a business profitable than decent fabrication skills.

Bingo, bingo, bingo and bingo.

[dinucci]

The improvements in road bicycles as we know them can all be traced back to the MTB companies who, when that niche tanked, diversified into the the then new (for them) road market. Not all made the cut. The energy flow went through everything. There were no traditions or conventions. Materials, joining techniques, and fab processes all take their cues from that transition era that also began the long death spiral for this niche's past.

I only kinda understand what you are saying here. the MTBs were just steel bikes which used the standard techniques that we still use. then they went to bigger factories that had access to more expensive/newer tech.

[dinucci]

What Fattic said:
attitude.
without the proper attitude you won't get to where you want to be.
attitude defines your ability to learn. you need to learn frame building just as a musician learns.
i see so much crap work being done. dropouts poorly designed, slots being cut in a tube for an internal route with no respect for what happens to the tube when it flexes, stupid seat tubes that will buckle when severely loaded, disc brake mounts that have not been tested but are being copied by many, obvious poor brazing, designs that wouldn't pass engineering 101, tubes that are supposed to flex with no regard for the resulting fatigue at the tube termination. frankly, it is more easy to find crap work than it is to find good work.

Hey Mike Mcdermid, of course you get why a lug would be filed just to make it look better or you would increase your feed rates and make your good lookin parts look less professional. I file my lugs so the fatigue life is extended as far as I am able to (and, well, yeah, it looks good too).

I picked up the frame construction aspects pretty fast but I had been making stuff since I was five years old. It took allot longer to understand how a bike frame works. I know far more about a frames function than almost anyone who posts here. It is embarrassingly obvious that many who show their work here will never understand enough of the frames' function. That is one of the reasons Richard started this thread. We can see it and it is embarrassing.

As far as a tig process being too expensive, therefore you bronze weld, it is cheaper to get a tig rig than it is to make one production in-cast lug. TIG is the cheapest way to make a bike frame, period. And I see folks here getting excited about a welded aluminium frame. gimme a break, alu cannot make a spring. what a waste of time. people here think a modern bike is a welded bike. welding is just plain cheap, period. A properly designed lugged frame joint will out perform a steel welded or bronze welded joint, period.

it seems to me that one of the reasons we so so much crap here is:
the most dangerous unknown is the unknown unknown.
therefore, use the proper attitude, study, practice, repetition, learn, repeat.
you aren't going to find any worthwhile info on a youtube vid. there ain't no app folks, just ain't.

I am still learning. I never light the torch without feeling some fear of what the result may be.
dinucci

[zank]

I wasted my week finishing up three aluminum frames. It was a ton of fun.

[dinucci]

have fun wasting your time. don't you feel as though your customer could have gotten a better frame by using a different material? careful.

[devlin]

I never light the torch without feeling some fear of what the result may be.

I feel this as well but I'm far less experienced as well.

[zank]

I will. Welding is a huge passion of mine.

[dinucci]

I will. Welding is a huge passion of mine.

hey welder dude, did the lugs just seem like too much work?
YEE HAW Ride 'em cowboy
will I make to the eight second bell? (isn't it eight seconds for bulls?)
alright, welder dude who used to use lugs but has gone to the dark side of arc, i will now back off.
I am here to not only give you the poke with a sharp stick, welder dude, but to give some un-soloicited advice.

Yer welds look pretty good welder dude.
You will find that you can improve the fatigue life of the frame by making the head tube a bit (quite significantly actually) more well attached by:

Washing/figure eight the welds where the HT/TT crotch at the top is, and the HT/DT at the bottom is. To make it even better, which should be used on all MTB frames, where the main plane of the frame intersects the the HT/TT/DT wash, or figure eight, or which method you prefer the welds in these areas. This has been proven to significantly improve fatigue life. I won't say what percentage but it is significant. These frames usually break at the HT/DT or HT/TT areas first, therefore this method should be employed here first.

[e-RICHIE]

My hat is tipped to those who evolved swiftly and could take money from others so soon. After reading most of the replies, my experience and inner framebuilder tells me that many listen but very few hear.

I'd love for the trade to be strong and also hold a high place in industry pyramid as it did in another time. That's why I'm vigilant about training and repetition. And about manning work stations so that tasks become intuitive. Different times indeed.

[dinucci]

There are many thousands of welders manning work stations everyday of the year in Asia. They are where the craft mostly is now.

[Will Neide]

No wonder that guild thing didn't work.

[Will Neide]

There are many thousands of welders manning work stations everyday of the year in Asia. They are where the craft mostly is now.

Welders manning workstations are not craftsmen, but laborers. Or possibly considered tradesman. The industry is not a craft. It's not a knock against the industry, but let's not confuse craftsman and laborers. e-Richie is a craftsman. Zank is a craftsman. Random 9-9 welder is not (no offense slave labor welder dude.)

[Rody]

No wonder that guild thing didn't work.

Most successful one man shops are manned by opinionated, strong willed, experienced individuals.

Makes it hard to find a consensus, but is also why we survive.

Find common ground and embrace it, recognize we are different and accept each for who they are.

r

[e-RICHIE]

Welders manning workstations are not craftsmen, but laborers. Or possibly considered tradesman. The industry is not a craft. It's not a knock against the industry, but let's not confuse craftsman and laborers. e-Richie is a craftsman. Zank is a craftsman. Random 9-9 welder is not (no offense slave labor welder dude.)

I have to disagree. We all descend from these workers in one way, shape, or form. We may appear to be craftsmen, and some of us actually do work that could be seen as craft. But we're fabricators first and foremost. The folks you mention (me, Zanks, others...) can only dream of having the innate skills that come from laboring all day, every day, at factories that make bicycle frames. I envy these cats. I wish I had the depth of experience they had. But, I wouldn't trade what I have to get it. However, I did the 1972 equivalent of it when I bought a one way ticket to England to see what the trade was about. As I mentioned already, though I did the requisite work at a production frame shop, and also made hundreds before a single one had my name on one, I started too soon. And, I think nearly everyone in Y2K starts too soon as well.

[dinucci]

Please do not belittle the laborer, for that we are all labourers.
testing:
I have met hundreds of Asian bike frame welders who have skillfully MASTERED their labor.
trap door opens, crocodiles eat you.
replace the last word, labor with craft.
ding, bell rings. the lucky lady wins the qupie doll.
is your nightie bunched up or sumpthin?

[devlin]

I have a question that for most on here will only be able to answer from their own perspective. My own mind thinks I'd have to ask this elsewhere.

Would any of the established builders like to take on a trainee for say 6 months. I realise this is not a case where at the end of 6 months I would circumvent years of experience but I feel in 6 months I could learn a crap load that would put me in a much better position. Only I know what I'm capable of and able to understand and with a few frames already under my belt I have an understanding of what's required to build a functional frame. If I could get myself to the US and take a minimal wage and board with someone, would any of the builders want or care to do it? This is a serious question and if I knew that avenue was open to me I'd act on it. (Going back on my previous statement of not leaving here. But 6 months would go by quick)

I do understand, as mentioned earlier, that most builders are one man one frame at a time and can't afford to do this and that the customer is also not getting 100% of the builders time which is a big factor in picking your frames maker.

Second question. Can we make a list of the production companies in the US so I can approach them as well?

[dinucci]

I used less words than you did. Na Na.

Oops, that was my response to Richard.

[jclay]

Welders manning workstations are not craftsmen, but laborers. Or possibly considered tradesman. The industry is not a craft. It's not a knock against the industry, but let's not confuse craftsman and laborers. e-Richie is a craftsman. Zank is a craftsman. Random 9-9 welder is not (no offense slave labor welder dude.)

Anybody who can weld bicycle tubing well is a highly skilled person and not deserving of being tarred with your rather broad and disparaging brush. I don't think you know enough about the individuals to make such a statement. I view them as craftspeople.

[e-RICHIE]

I have a question that for most on here will only be able to answer from their own perspective. My own mind thinks I'd have to ask this elsewhere.

Would any of the established builders like to take on a trainee for say 6 months. I realise this is not a case where at the end of 6 months I would circumvent years of experience but I feel in 6 months I could learn a crap load that would put me in a much better position. Only I know what I'm capable of and able to understand and with a few frames already under my belt I have an understanding of what's required to build a functional frame. If I could get myself to the US and take a minimal wage and board with someone, would any of the builders want or care to do it? This is a serious question and if I knew that avenue was open to me I'd act on it. (Going back on my previous statement of not leaving here. But 6 months would go by quick)

I do understand, as mentioned earlier, that most builders are one man one frame at a time and can't afford to do this and that the customer is also not getting 100% of the builders time which is a big factor in picking your frames maker.

Second question. Can we make a list of the production companies in the US so I can approach them as well?

I've articulated this often and again. The pace at which work happens at an independent frambuilder's studio, that tasks are performed and then repeated, is not fast enough for someone to learn. If you're lucky, they can stop what they're doing and show you what they just did. That is not teaching, nor will you be learning. That, friends, demands an environment of work. Lots of work.

If you want a list of production shops, look at the names on the first 24 bicycles you see when you walk into a local shop. These names are the ones you contact and say, "Hey. I'm willing to give myself over toy you for (period of time to get filled in...) and accept only a daily lunch, in return for becoming part of the operation that churns out these bicycles." When your term is up, you'll have seen and touched more, experienced more, and you have some tools to use for your own folly. It would take years, many years if at all, for you to get that standing in a framebuilder's shop hoping to understand what it is he's doing.

You want a piece of this? Make the investment. It's not a hobby. It's a profession.