Anvil vs. Henry James Jig….The big questions!

[MagicCycles]

Greetings all!

I am in the market for a new jig. I am considering the Anvil journeyman 4 or the Henry James universal jig. I respectfully ask for suggestions, comments, and or ideas regarding the merits and detractions of both systems.

Cheers and thanks in advance!

[Rody]

The best feedback I can give is this...

You will learn more about bicycle design and machining fundamentals by working through the process of designing and fabricating your own fixture than you will in 5 years of sticking tubes together on someone else's fixture.

Leave the professional level fixtures to full time pros who have years of experience in the bank and need accuracy, repeat-ability, and efficiency of set up to put food on the table.

Until then, invest in building skills and knowledge fundamentals that will prepare you for long term success.

Creating your own fixtures will be a launch pad that will put you far ahead on the learning curve.

rody

[Eric Estlund]

Hi Greg-

I was clicking through your web site, and noticed a few things that struck me.

First, on your contact page you show a picture of a cut lug. This is a lug Dave Bohm cut in 2009 for a frame building student in Australia:

campagnolo delta brakes: Bicycle Project 2, day 7

Framebuilding school student extraordinaire | Bohemian Bicycles Blogorama

Second, there is some page copy that shows a stricking resemblance to another forum members page copy.



Professional frame building is a pretty small world, and we tend to know and help each other out. We have this board to share information and assist each other with professional development. I encourage you to only show your work while representing your production. If you are sharing others work, cite the builder and acknowledge their contribution.

[Andrew R Stewart]

I won't bother to go into the Op's website or ethics. The real world of business will teach that lesson soon enough if it's needed.

But to address the question of jigs. I have HJ Uni. I have played with an Anvil. I find the HJ to be more flexible in doing weird things, building forks, stems, non bike parts. It is a slow set up and installing/removing tubes/the frame is more involved. I think the Anvil is better for an experienced builder. faster set up and better access. But, as I've said before, for my hobby level of building I'd get Doug Fattic's jig and a suitably large flat surface if I were starting over. Heck, the flat surface is more important then the brand or style of the jig.

[MagicCycles]

Eric,

Thank you for your comments. Yes you are correct. It has been removed. It is being corrected and replaced with a new site.

[MagicCycles]

The best feedback I can give is this...

You will learn more about bicycle design and machining fundamentals by working through the process of designing and fabricating your own fixture than you will in 5 years of sticking tubes together on someone else's fixture.

Leave the professional level fixtures to full time pros who have years of experience in the bank and need accuracy, repeat-ability, and efficiency of set up to put food on the table.

Until then, invest in building skills and knowledge fundamentals that will prepare you for long term success.

Creating your own fixtures will be a launch pad that will put you far ahead on the learning curve.

rody

Thank you for your comments. I have cobbled my own type of fixture and also purchased a very low-end one. But it is very limiting in what I can accomplish. I am wanting to move up to a better level fixture.

Secondly, I thought you comment about Professional level fixtures a bit condescending. Just because I am newer than you or others doesn't necessarily mean that I do not have skills. It also doesn't mean that I don't need to feed and care for my family as well. I spent 20 years as a motion picture cameraman. I also grew up around farming and have been wielding a torch for most of my life. A few years ago I jumped into making frames. Yes I still have much to learn… But after 20 years as a Cameraman, I would still say the same things. The moment I stop learning and believe I know everything is the moment where I have failed. If I am not learning and growing in my skills and methods, I am stepping backwards. Just my ramblings.

I do appreciate your comment. I do.

Cheeers,
G

[MagicCycles]

I won't bother to go into the Op's website or ethics. The real world of business will teach that lesson soon enough if it's needed.

But to address the question of jigs. I have HJ Uni. I have played with an Anvil. I find the HJ to be more flexible in doing weird things, building forks, stems, non bike parts. It is a slow set up and installing/removing tubes/the frame is more involved. I think the Anvil is better for an experienced builder. faster set up and better access. But, as I've said before, for my hobby level of building I'd get Doug Fattic's jig and a suitably large flat surface if I were starting over. Heck, the flat surface is more important then the brand or style of the jig.

Thanks for the info! I appreciate it!

[Rody]

Secondly, I thought you comment about Professional level fixtures a bit condescending. Just because I am newer than you or others doesn't necessarily mean that I do not have skills.

Cheeers,
G

Greg, no condescension implied, I'm sorry you took it that way.

My point is this... at this point in your career, you will benefit more by thoughtfully designing and fabricating your own fixture than you ever will by buying someone else's work. The market has plenty of "pro" fixtures for sale by those who want to do this work full time, buy expensive tools, then can't make a go of it because they have not invested in their own education and progression of skills.

If your tooling is limiting your ability to build what you want, then redesign it and facilitate your own growth.

If you are dead set on spending coin because you feel it will move you to a higher level of efficiency NOW, then please do so. This forum is all about mentoring and I'm just trying to give you a nudge towards a path that will pay off for years to come rather than satisfy an immediate goal.

rody

[MagicCycles]

Greg, no condescension implied, I'm sorry you took it that way.

My point is this... at this point in your career, you will benefit more by thoughtfully designing and fabricating your own fixture than you ever will by buying someone else's work. The market has plenty of "pro" fixtures for sale by those who want to do this work full time, buy expensive tools, then can't make a go of it because they have not invested in their own education and progression of skills.

If your tooling is limiting your ability to build what you want, then redesign it and facilitate your own growth.

If you are dead set on spending coin because you feel it will move you to a higher level of efficiency NOW, then please do so. This forum is all about mentoring and I'm just trying to give you a nudge towards a path that will pay off for years to come rather than satisfy an immediate goal.

rody

Rody,

Thank you! I appreciate it. I was a bit edgy. Thank you again for your thoughts and ideas. I have thought about making a better fixture. I am undecided regarding which way to turn.

Cheers!

[Tristan]

You will learn more about bicycle design and machining fundamentals by working through the process of designing and fabricating your own fixture than you will in 5 years of sticking tubes together on someone else's fixture.
[snip]
Creating your own fixtures will be a launch pad that will put you far ahead on the learning curve.

I'm interested by this comment Rody. My thoughts had been the opposite - that buying a commercial jig would give a new builder like myself a benchmark and a known startpoint and would allow my focus to be on the tubes rather than the jig. Thanks for giving me a different perspective on things.

[Doug Fattic]

I’m going to take a different view than Rody (I really admire both this building and painting skills). Most of my framebuilding class students would be completely lost if they had to somehow figure out how to design and make their own fixtures. At best they would just copy something except they couldn’t because they don’t have any engineering or machining skills. It is an extremely rare student that can understand enough of how a frame should be made to be able to design something to do it. Particularly when they are just starting out.

A pro like myself can build a decent frame with really limited tooling. That is how the classic builders did it. Actually I’m in Ukraine right now doing exactly that. A typical rookie needs all the help he can get and benefits from using the accuracy in a good fixture. Buy the best you can afford and enjoy the journey right from the start. If for some reason you quit, it can be sold for at least 2/3rds or more of its original cost.

Like Eric mentioned, the framebuilding world is a small one and most of us personally know each other including those individuals making fixtures. We get along because we don’t comment openly about each other’s deficiencies. It’s not like asking the difference between Shimano and Campy. Perhaps your best way to get an honest opinion is to find out who has these fixtures and ask them personally. We are all different and like to work in different ways. And we adjust our methods to what we have.

When I got back from my apprenticeship in England in the 70’s, there weren’t any commercial fixtures I was aware of that were reasonably available in the US. I had to make my own. This was an enormous effort and a long journey involving lots of people. Eventually thousands of hours later I really like my results but I’m not expecting others to go down that road. My fixture is based off of the “sizing board” many classic English builders used and has lots of bells and whistles. While I am here in Ukraine, I’m working with a Ukraine laser cutter to make a much more basic (and cheaper) unit. The way they work just makes the most sense to me and I make them available in case someone else may think the same way too.

Rody learned from one of the smartest guys in the industry that made really clever fixtures including the one Rody uses now that they designed together. I’m wondering if they have been made available for others to buy?

[edoz]

I agree with Rody on this one, and add that each builder will develop their own quirks and differences in the way that they build frames. Working with a fixture designed and built by someone else can sometimes force you into a certain way of doing things that doesn't feel right to you. You may also run into instances where you want your fixture to serve a certain purpose that the designer never intended, and therefore it isn't well equipped for the job and you end up buying/fabricating something else.

It also depends on your level of skill going in. If you're unfamiliar with metalworking in general and just want to learn build frames, then commercial fixtures may help you to that end, but if you already possess fabrication skills before building frames, then it makes much more sense (to me, anyway) to make your own.

[Mike Mcdermid]

i like the sizing board someone should do that.

[Doug Fattic]

i like the sizing board someone should do that.

IMG_0161.jpgIMG_0166.jpg
This is my bells and whistles version that makes me happy. It is essentially a full scale drawing that holds the tubes. It allows me to convert a bicycle position (represented by placing a seat post/saddle and stem in the customer's position in the fixture) into a frame design by sliding the flat pieces that represent the frames tubes to meet those components. That allows me to see in real life if everything looks proportional (like having the right amount of stem out or number of stackers). The laser etching allows me to quickly read all angles and dimensions and to adjust anything if necessary. Once I am satisfied with the design, I can miter the tubes (and check their accuracy in the fixture) and spot the frame together. I braze it free after checking alignment on the table before and after each braze.

[Rody]

Most of my framebuilding class students...

and this is the crux.

The gentlemen asking this question is not a student, or even a hobbyist. He is actively pursuing frame building as a professional, entrusting paying customers with his ability to design and fabricate a vehicle that will carry them safely. That is a heavy responsibility.

Thus my recommendation...embrace every opportunity to know your shit before you take someone's money, and their health, into your hands.

r

[e-RICHIE]

Thus my recommendation...embrace every opportunity to know your shit before you take someone's money, and their health, into your hands.

Says ^ it all atmo.

[VertigoCycles]

If you're looking at the Anvil vs. the HJ only, the choice should be dependent on your process. I've had an Anvil since 2006 and I got to use the HJ extensively while instructing at UBI. The Anvil is much faster to setup and if your welding or fillet brazing most of the time I'd say it's a no-brainer to go with the Anvil. Don might take issue with this but IMO it's functionally similar to the old Arctos fixtures in that it uses a simple X,Y location to set the HT bottom center and the fixture holds the dropouts, BB shell, HT and seat tube in space about where they're supposed to be. It uses fairly easy to read markings to setup HTA, STA and BB drop as well as setting the X,Y dims of the HT quite easily. If your mitering process isn't dialed the Anvil will be more tolerant than the HT in terms of how long it takes to make compensations.

The HJ fixture is great for its intended use, which IMO is making lugged bikes. That's not to say that you can't make a non-lugged bike in it but the whole thing is setup using some calculations (for which you may very well need a full size drawing, perhaps BikeCAD has output for the setup though) and reference sheets. The BB shell is setup using the ST as a guide which doesn't feel right to me but it definitely works. Getting the HT in place is a bit clunky but it works. I don't much like the idea of rigidly holding the main frame tubes in place the way the HJ fixture works BUT IT WORKS just fine. IMO the biggest issue is in tweaking it to account for mitering tolerance. If a mm off is OK with you, get the Anvil.

I will say that the UBI students who build lugged frames ALWAYS use the HJ fixture and all the frames come out shockingly straight. Way straighter than I ever imagined. Probably because that fixture is more tolerant to dealing with too much pressure in the joints (which you don't want). If you try to cram a TT or ST into your frame in an Anvil or Arctos fixture, you're going to build a crooked bike.

Also, if you ever need to back purge a frame, the Anvil (and others) would be much better than the HJ.

One last word...never ever assume that a fixture you buy is straight no matter who built it. Each fixture will come with its own "personality." you have to get to know it and learn how to bend it to your will. If you do something stupid (and everyone does at some point) it's not going to save you. IMO the job of the frame fixture is to let you setup your frame components quickly and accurately so you can make money. Everything that happens after that setup is on you.

[e-RICHIE]

This is some of the best career and noob advice ever typed anywhere, not just on V Place Frame Forum atmo.

One last word...never ever assume that a fixture you buy is straight no matter who built it. Each fixture will come with its own "personality." you have to get to know it and learn how to bend it to your will. If you do something stupid (and everyone does at some point) it's not going to save you. IMO the job of the frame fixture is to let you setup your frame components quickly and accurately so you can make money. Everything that happens after that setup is on you.

[devlin]

That's the one major thing I have learned from this forum. The fixture (frame jig) is a tool to make the process faster not straighter. If your process isn't down pat then the jig won't help you build a straight frame. I am sure the OP realises this. I suspect he is looking for whether one jig is better for one certain way of building ie. welding as opposed to lugs and rather than spend time and money through trial and error he is asking for some advice..........which he got.

[ron l edmiston]

--- i like the above... "never assume"

kind'a fits education, too.., -- from college, trade or in-the-trench/s..

handcrafting a bike resonates with me relative to handcrafting one's life..

ronnie with a smile to learn, apply & learn some-more..