im thinking about resurecting the cheap frame jig project

[Mike Mcdermid]

15070996445_0b848b51e9_o.png

thanks to Curious George down in New Zealand ,He sent me the plans for an old OLD design I did for a framejig in 2006 though it actually says 2007 on the drawings these were actually posted up for free on the old but now defunct frameforum ,so i was thinking as we now make make a more refined version of it maybe its time to go back to making these for the hobbyist level builder if they don't have the machine shop themselves

All the features we put into our expensive jig were actually born from this one simple concept back in 2007

I've never made it a secret I'm not a fan of the aluminium 8020 extrusion mainly because its so damn expensive in Europe those big arctos jigs sections the 160 x 80s are over 150 dollars a metre here in europe ,its actually significantly cheaper to buy 25mm tooling plate ,that's one of the reasons (tolerances and ease of machining aside) the more refined jig we made for BML was made out of tooling plate

so im not sure wether to refine it further and do a kit or just do more refinement to the drawings and put it back out there for all to just evolve it on their own

[duanedr]

First, I'm a hobbyist. The following is from that perspective:

I love the idea of an 8020 jig using as many off the shelf parts as possible - even if it sacrifices some speed of setting up. Right now, I've had a set of mitered tubes sitting on my alignment table for 2 months waiting for me to finish the mitering and 'ok' the final measurements. Another 2 hours of set up time is irrelevant. To someone who builds a frame per week, 2 hours for jig set up would be silly. For them, there are plenty of options and making their own jig from scratch is probably one option as they have access to machines and expertise.

My situation: In a good year, I hope to build 2 or 3 frames. They will be for me, family or friends. I have a lot of friends who are local racers or ex-racers. I trust them to keep an eye on things and check in with me regularly so I know how things are holding up. The following isn't a business plan and obviously won't hold up to an MBA's enquiry - I expect my pricing to be near $0 per frame/fork - maybe a 6-pack of my favorite beverage. Each bike will cost me roughly $300-600 in materials (I use cheap tubes). Add onto that the amortization of a $2000 frame jig, $500 fork jig, $250 CS jig etc etc. etc. and then $500 in taps/facers - well, that's a pretty expensive gift to be giving away every few months! A low price jig is important.

The learning that goes into using a lathe or mill correctly is beyond what I want to allocate time to and the designing of parts for a jig would just add to that. I'd rather spend my very precious remaining time designing the next bike build, or riding the previous bike build.

All of this is a long and poor way of saying that a simple jig using off the shelf parts that may require more set up time as an input but still have relatively high quality output would be very much appreciated. If there was a jig that used 95% off the shelf parts and the CAD drawings for the remaining 5% were provided, I think that would be a great contribution to the community. I haven't added up the pricing on the basic 8020 stuff to make a jig but, $700 would be a great pricepoint for a jig including minimal custom local machinework on any special parts needed. CAD drawings on additional upgrade features would be awesome so users could 'upgrade' as they felt was necessary.

NOTE: I built a fork jig from 8020 based on alex wetmore and Alistair Spence's designs and I am very happy with it. After building a couple forks, I realize it's limits but, I can work within them and know my customers* will be fine with the results! For example, I used a 3/4ths tubing block from Paragon with a Meade 3/4ths inch dummy axle. I just had to drill and tap some holes in the tubing block. To hold the steerer tube, I created a simple clamp mount that held a Paragon 2"x2" block in plane so, whether i'm using a 1 or 1-1/8th steerer tube, I can use the same jig with the same offset measurements. I use some simple measuring tools to ensure everything is in plane and aligned correctly.

*Customers include Me, my 7 year old son and my 12 year old son. My 4th customer is likely my old college roommate in Rockport MA who will receive his bike as a surprise.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Duane thanks for the feedback to be honest im surprised at the 700 bucks figure, that's a lot for a hobby fixture but then im not sure what the extrusions cost over your side of the pond I'm sure there was a guy doing a kit to build arctos jigs for 1000 sheckels at some point and what was even more surprising was they got snapped up at that price

, my question was driven more for the euro crowd where its not as easy to find this stuff and jigs exchange hands for what i would consider silly money (but hey people will pay what they think something is worth)

[savine]

Start making them mate......a good working jig that's easy to use for a grand or two is still way cheaper for us in Europe to buy than import from the States. I'm looking for a new jig for home and would be interested if these came out.

[Mark Kelly]

Mike

You can put me down for the demountable chainstay jig part if you make them available separately.

[Mike Mcdermid]

Mike

You can put me down for the demountable chainstay jig part if you make them available separately.

do you want the details for the part that allow it to double as a fork jig mark, thats one thing we never showed on any of the drawings?

edit, i think it might be better to close this thread as its turning a bit sales oriented rather than usefull info

[duanedr]

[QUOTE=Mike Mcdermid;625970]Duane thanks for the feedback to be honest im surprised at the 700 bucks figure, QUOTE]

The fork jig I made was around $200 I think by the time I purchased the extrusions, dummy axle, 3 tube blocks, brackets to hold it down to the bench etc. A local shop has an New older JA Stein jig setup that he was willing to sell wholesale for $450 or so but it wasn't an upright jig like most I've seen. The $700 reflects that it would be available when I wanted to buy/build it. I have seen used jigs for sale (here and elsewhere) but typically they are at least $700 and they get snapped up nearly instantly so, even if I was willing to spend $1000 or more, the supply isn't there.

Frankly, at this point, I have skills to perfect before a jig makes sense to purchase so, I'm not even saying that I want something now but, I know how long some of these projects can take to develop so, just planting seeds.

[steve garro]

[QUOTE=duanedr;626015]

A local shop has an New older JA Stein jig setup that he was willing to sell wholesale for $450 or so but it wasn't an upright jig like most I've seen.

Really?
I worked for Jim & owned his jig, which I sold back to him, and I was sure it was the only one he ever made.
Got pics or a link?
- Garro.

[Tristan]

I'm in the hobbiest camp and I'm surprised by the lack of jig offerings, and I'm surprised how many home-made jigs are out there. To me US$1-$2k for a reasonably-straight, well thought-out jig would be good value and something I'd consider.

Maybe some sort of offering like Caterham cars?
-here are the blocks of metal. Drill and tap holes yourself. $500
-here are the drilled and tapped blocks of metal. Supply your own extrusions. $1000
-here is a fully finished jig. $1500

[Mike Mcdermid]

I'm in the hobbiest camp and I'm surprised by the lack of jig offerings, and I'm surprised how many home-made jigs are out there. To me US$1-$2k for a reasonably-straight, well thought-out jig would be good value and something I'd consider.

Maybe some sort of offering like Caterham cars?
-here are the blocks of metal. Drill and tap holes yourself. $500
-here are the drilled and tapped blocks of metal. Supply your own extrusions. $1000
-here is a fully finished jig. $1500

Tristan that was where it was headed we just replace c channel with extrusion we machine the rest as they have common parts with our high end jig same design just cheaper materials

[duanedr]

I do, see below:
Like I said, it's not really a jig it's really fork and chainstay fixtures. More my point was that a $700 jig was reasonable since just this was going for $450 which was wholesale. This was clearly a production unit and was listed in (IIRC) the J&B catalog from the era. I didn't see the date on the catalog so, i'm not sure what era.

Here is everything he had that he thought was related:
wholething1.jpg

There is a silver clamp, rod and vice block that appears to be for holding chainstays but the way the long rod attaches made us think it was for bending fork blades? It wasn't clear whether that was actually part of the JA Stein product or if it was something that the shop happened to have from many years ago and they just ended up in the same box - it's an old shop (Wright Brothers in Fremont).

bladebender.jpg

In the next picture you can see a hole for a dummy axle fitting that is missing at the end of the long rectangular extension. You can see the fork fixture here in these pictures.
Forkjig3.jpg
steererclampside.jpg
steererclamp.jpg
rearfixture3.jpg

It appears that dummy axle was swappable as the rod fitting attached to both the bottom bracket post fixture as well as the steerer clamp fixture above.

rearfixture2.jpg
rearfixture.jpg

Anyway, he wants $450 or so for all that's pictured here.

[Eric Estlund]

Those are for checking fork and frame alignment, not for building frames. That is a good price if you are planning to use them for their intended purpose, but I wouldn't use either for frame and fork construction.

[duanedr]

That would make sense.

If anyone is interested, feel free to contact Wright Bros Cyclery in Seattle, WA

[Will Neide]

I'm curious to see where this goes, but if the priority is cheap, are other designs on the table? Kind of hard to beat a flat table and various tube blocks....similar to Alex Meade flat table jig.

For me it wasn't the quickest, but it was fairly quick and very very accurate. Chainstays were kind of a pain, but not so bad if you had a chainstay jig. I'd think a chainstay jig, with a flat plate jig would be a great set-up on the cheap. Quick, reliable, cheap.

FWIW, I have a buddy of mine who works for a company that sells Parker Industrial Extrusion: Parker - IPS/ALUMINUM EXTRUSION

We had talked about working on something to sell as a kit for jigs, but we never got to carried away with it. Only worked up a few numbers, but the pricing was reasonable....couple hundred bucks for the extrusion, but it was based off of my beam jig. I tapped my Alex Meade flat jig blocks so I could use them on the jig of or the flat table. All in all for the extrusion, bolts, and the 90 degree adapters, I think I have $250 into it. I got the Alex Meade blocks separate (used through the classifieds). All in all, somewhere around $650 total. Probably make a few small changes.

Frame Mode:

Untitled by Wilco Cycleworks, on Flickr

Excel program to find X,Y coordinates:

Untitled by Wilco Cycleworks, on Flickr

Fork Mode:

Untitled by Wilco Cycleworks, on Flickr

Stem Mode: (Using Alex Meade Blocks)

Untitled by Wilco Cycleworks, on Flickr

[steve garro]

Those are for checking fork and frame alignment, not for building frames. That is a good price if you are planning to use them for their intended purpose, but I wouldn't use either for frame and fork construction.

Yep.
I had Jim's fork fixture as well - it was an easy 50lbs!
- Garro.

[duanedr]

Kind of hard to beat a flat table and various tube blocks....similar to Alex Meade flat table jig.

This is how I do it now. I have many Paragon tube blocks that I clamp onto the tubes in sync and then use them as my references to ensure the front triangle is in plane. I have a fixture that gets the BB perpendicular to the ST and then I tack the other tubes to that spine and then check it on the table and adjust where needed. Then I put it in the stand and braze. I built a little fixture for attaching the rear triangle.

Having seen many jigs made from the 8020 extrusion stuff, I have plenty of designs to work from and that's probably a future project for tool building. I want to build a stem jig next.

@Garro - yes, each of these pieces were very heavy.

[steve garro]

@Garro - yes, each of these pieces were very heavy.

I'll look for a pic…….nothing like what you are showing, nothing.

Here it is (most of it, there is a rear triangle fixture as well) it's in the back of his truck with the fork jig:
coconino cycles custom bicycles 928 774 7747 www.coconinocycles.com: @&#^%*@!!!!!

- Garro.

[duanedr]

I'll look for a pic…….nothing like what you are showing, nothing.

At first I thought the 2nd 'nothing' was redundant, then I saw the pictures. I think I've seen complete body off automobile restorations done on lighter equipment than that!! Wow! Based on the parts I've seen, he certainly made them to be sturdy and last.

[steve garro]

At first I thought the 2nd 'nothing' was redundant, then I saw the pictures. I think I've seen complete body off automobile restorations done on lighter equipment than that!! Wow! Based on the parts I've seen, he certainly made them to be sturdy and last.

Right?
The rear triangle fixture was BARELY movable without help.
The pic shows the main window and the fork fixture.
- Garro.

[afwalker]

So the original question posed to the community was since extrusions are expensive (8020, Mitsumi etc) 25mm flat plate is cheaper, are people interested in a frame jig at a price lower than one based on extrusions? I would think this would resonate with many hobbyists and low volumn builders. As long as it is adjustable, and the points are in alignement its a frame jig. I say go for it Mike!
cheers