Bottle boss reinforcements: necessary?

[veryredbike]

Is there a wall thickness where you guys stop worrying about using reinforcements on bottle bosses? Is there one where you start? Is it all visual, or is there a concern of damage to the tubes once it's loaded up?

Thanks,
Jim

[e-RICHIE]

It's all visual atmo.

[steve garro]

I always put them on the DT as I have seen bottles ripped out by sticks, ect - but, never on the ST of gear bikes, although I put stars all around on 1-speeds, just because/ + no front derailleur interface issues.
- Garro.

[veryredbike]

Thanks!

[NBC]

i've seen bosses ripped from a down tube on a mountain bike before,
but not so far on a road bike, though undoubtedly it has happened, i imagine that it's quite rare due to the kind of riding it is

i put diamonds on my road bikes anyway, it's very little effort, the weight is rather negligible, and they add that extra little something which i like, and a little more strength can never hurt right ?
i put a front mech brazeon on most of the road bikes that i've done, i like the fact you can then get the seat tube bottle cage far closer to the bb shell that way, which can be quite important / useful on a smaller frame

just my take on things, diamonds aren't necessary really, but if you can, it's not going to hurt

NBC

[suzyj]

I always use diamonds because cheap bikes don't. I don't think they actually do anything other than show that the builder has taken a bit of care.

[veryredbike]

Any advice on keeping the points lined up?

[Gattonero]

...
i put a front mech brazeon on most of the road bikes that i've done, i like the fact you can then get the seat tube bottle cage far closer to the bb shell that way, which can be quite important / useful on a smaller frame

just my take on things, diamonds aren't necessary really, but if you can, it's not going to hurt

NBC

Good point.
Small frames sometime become the Mechanic's pain!

[suzyj]

Any advice on keeping the points lined up?

An itty-bitty flame, and applying the silver to the end, not the side of the diamond. It's a bit of a knack, as you need naff-all (tm) silver.

[e-RICHIE]

Any advice on keeping the points lined up?

When I did use them the filler metal was always applied to the boss and bled out gently under the reinforce-er piece. Otherwise, if you're trying to aim heat at the piece first, you're essentially brazing on to the tube in the very region you're trying to reinforce. That's counter-intuitive atmo. The residual heat from the boss should allow enough filler to join the plate to the tube. If not, keep practicing.

[Will Neide]

I almost always do on the DT, but not always on the ST. The diamonds look nice IMO. Also, some of the stainless bottle bosses have larger diameters to give you more surface area: www.paragonmachineworks.com - MS1005StainlessSteelWaterBottleBoss11mmODM5x8for14 Hole

[EnginCycles]

When I did use them the filler metal was always applied to the boss and bled out gently under the reinforce-er piece. Otherwise, if you're trying to aim heat at the piece first, you're essentially brazing on to the tube in the very region you're trying to reinforce. That's counter-intuitive atmo. The residual heat from the boss should allow enough filler to join the plate to the tube. If not, keep practicing.

+1, but I really feel these things are can openers. Round re-enforcements make much more sense to me if one really wants to use something.

[e-RICHIE]

+1, but I really feel these things are can openers. Round re-enforcements make much more sense to me if one really wants to use something.

Ya and further, it's like heating a tube when your are brazing a lug, and hope that the filler hears your message. It's the wrong message atmo. There's always a major and a minor player, and the solid part (the lug, the boss cylinder...) is the the former. Never heat the tube. Otherwise, you may as well just "write" your name out with brass or silver and bypass down tube decals altogether. Wait - I think I saw that at NAHBS atmo. #toughlove

[steve garro]

+1, but I really feel these things are can openers. Round re-enforcements make much more sense to me if one really wants to use something.

You've seen a tube damaged because of an H2O diamond?

I never have - but, I've sen TONS bust at the down tube shifter/STI stops.

- Garro.

[e-RICHIE]

PS Always add the braze-ons to the pipe BEFORE the pipe becomes a component of a bicycle frame atmo. Be kind, be gentle.

[Curt Goodrich]

I used to put a lot of them on when I was building Rivendells. For small frames Grant would spec the seat tube bottle mounts low and to round of the points of the bosses on the inside only to make room for the front derailleur clamp. Since stopping building Rivs I've gotten those stars out of my system. Never found them a challenge to put on it's just they've become too trendy for me.

[Andrew R Stewart]

Good point.
Small frames sometime become the Mechanic's pain!

+1 Itdisappointinging how many brands/companies don't really get how to design a small frame. Or maybe just don't care enough to approve the added cost of different set ups for the small ones. Most of the meager number of frames that I've made are 50cm or smaller. Placement of braze ons, geometry, tubing selections all are common areas compromiseise and often are just the bigger frames' specs. At work i get annoyed at this daily. Andy.

[Gattonero]

I used to put a lot of them on when I was building Rivendells. For small frames Grant would spec the seat tube bottle mounts low and to round of the points of the bosses on the inside only to make room for the front derailleur clamp. Since stopping building Rivs I've gotten those stars out of my system. Never found them a challenge to put on it's just they've become too trendy for me.

Small frames are blessed by braze-on FD, however this may limit the choice in case of triple ch/set or groupset.
Worst case scenario, a few washers (or even Presta valve washers) would step-away the ST bottle cage with minimal fuss

+1 Itdisappointinging how many brands/companies don't really get how to design a small frame. Or maybe just don't care enough to approve the added cost of different set ups for the small ones. Most of the meager number of frames that I've made are 50cm or smaller. Placement of braze ons, geometry, tubing selections all are common areas compromiseise and often are just the bigger frames' specs. At work i get annoyed at this daily. Andy.

Indeed.
Is not only the FD clamp, but the ST bosses, brake bridge and cable stop, pannier rack bosses and so on.
For the latter, under a certain size of frame there isn't much to do, except using long struts for the rack.
As far as the brake bridge, it drives me mad how some companies (say, Specialized, Cervelo, Wilier) would leave the Re brake cable stop a few centimeters from the ST even on small frames.... is it that difficult to think that the brake housing will be so short that in fact won't flex, making the Re. brake stiff?

[P K]

Do you guys have a preferred thickness of material for bottle diamonds? I'll guess thicker than tube, but what is common/best?

[steve garro]

Do you guys have a preferred thickness of material for bottle diamonds? I'll guess thicker than tube, but what is common/best?

Yep.
The ones Nova Cycles sells.
- Garro.