Career Transition

[David Lewis]

I was discharged from the Army with a disability in February 2013. I chose my existing love of bicycles as my career transition, and I started at UBI March 1st, after stopping by NAHBS in Denver. I may have met some of you there! I assumed that because UBI is a VA-funded vocational education institution that graduation would mean competence in the field and I would be on my way to a career. Now that I have finally finished all the courses, and I mean ALL the courses (frames and mechs), I would like to have a civil and frank discussion about what I may or may not have accomplished. Helped me or hindered?

Keep in mind, I have no interest in becoming a custom framebuilder. I have a very long term strategy, which will include producing componentry domestically, after several more years of education in metalworking and engineering. I am setting up a framebuilding operation now, but I want to begin with a standard model at a very low price point. I don't know where that will take me, but I need to stay relevant to cycling and I see this as the best strategy while I have access to a machine shop as a student. Currently, I have the bare minimum of equipment at home to build a frame, and I have only been practicing my TIG welding on mitered aircraft 4130. I have still yet to build a complete frame past the three I made at school, but now that I have a jig I will soon.

I would like to also take this opportunity to apologize to anyone I may have exchanged words with in the past. I am sure we are all passionate about cycling, and I think we all have different parts to play. I care deeply about cycling as transportation specifically, and I know others care just as much or more about it as sport. That's all I'll say about that for now.

So, to reiterate, what do you consider the value of a UBI certificate in this business?

2008-02-17-12-45-53.jpg

[deepsix]

THIS business?

I don't think having the certificate has ever sold a frame for a builder.

I'm not making a comment about the value of the knowledge gained at UBI. The knowledge you gained is yours.

It sounds like you need a business plan. That involves a detailed, phased out P&L including all startup costs that represents how you plan on making the money you need to have a legitimate business. You aren't equipped to construct that plan if you don't yet have the skill set of efficiently producing your product (and that is one small piece of the pie). Too many variables there.

There is no THIS business. The model I think I am hearing exists outside the bike "industry." It is YOUR business.
Hang on to your dreams. Approach someone in Portland who can set your expectations right on what lies ahead of you. Talking about that dream becoming a business sounds premature at this stage.

Also- Welcome home.
Frank

[EricKeller]

making frames is the easy part, selling them is significantly harder. And even if you are good at selling, running a business is not trivial. Pennsylvania has training for prospective small business owners, I would guess that Oregon has something similar. It's eye-opening.

[Mike Mcdermid]

I was discharged from the Army with a disability in February 2013. I chose my existing love of bicycles as my career transition, and I started at UBI March 1st, after stopping by NAHBS in Denver. I may have met some of you there! I assumed that because UBI is a VA-funded vocational education institution that graduation would mean competence in the field and I would be on my way to a career. Now that I have finally finished all the courses, and I mean ALL the courses (frames and mechs), I would like to have a civil and frank discussion about what I may or may not have accomplished. Helped me or hindered?

Keep in mind, I have no interest in becoming a custom framebuilder. I have a very long term strategy, which will include producing componentry domestically, after several more years of education in metalworking and engineering. I am setting up a framebuilding operation now, but I want to begin with a standard model at a very low price point. I don't know where that will take me, but I need to stay relevant to cycling and I see this as the best strategy while I have access to a machine shop as a student. Currently, I have the bare minimum of equipment at home to build a frame, and I have only been practicing my TIG welding on mitered aircraft 4130. I have still yet to build a complete frame past the three I made at school, but now that I have a jig I will soon.

I would like to also take this opportunity to apologize to anyone I may have exchanged words with in the past. I am sure we are all passionate about cycling, and I think we all have different parts to play. I care deeply about cycling as transportation specifically, and I know others care just as much or more about it as sport. That's all I'll say about that for now.

So, to reiterate, what do you consider the value of a UBI certificate in this business?

2008-02-17-12-45-53.jpg

You dont have contcts at a company called Tricor do you?

[e-RICHIE]

I think your path has precious little overlap with framebuilding practices and the corner
of the industry the niche inhabits. You'd likely make more connections and get better
advice from folks on an industrial design board, or one dedicated to entrepreneurs atmo.

[Rody]

David,

In response to your question...UBI and classes like this do not equip the student to leave with a certificate and begin a career, the goal is to open the eyes to the fabrication process and expose you to a sampling of the methodology.

If you are sincere about making this a career, the best course of action you can now take is to invest your time in learning the complexities of small business and customer service.

I wrote on this subject a month or so ago on my blog, here is an excerpt that is relevent to your situation...

Understand that building for a career and successfully making money is 90% small business skill and 10% fabrication. Too many folks get starry eyed over the thought of crafting frames by hand for a living and neglect the fact that you need to have a foundation in place before accepting orders, such as:

- Setting up the business (licenses, insurance, incorporation)
- Having a solid business plan (knowing COGS, product quotas each year to keep lights on, customer service costs, warranty costs in time and money per product, market niche)
- Qualifying fabrication skills (having product fatigue tested, meeting product standards like CEN)
- Defining your product (type or range of builds, materials you will use, options for finish, etc)
- Determining your benefits (amount set aside to pay yourself, health insurance, retirement)
- Determining the sustainability of this career over your lifetime goals...will it support you alone, a couple, a family?

It is a lot to consider, however, the reason so many builders fail is because they ignored the above calculations, instead blindly following their passion.

Honestly, this just scratches the surface.

I'd encourage you to follow Richards advise and begin to engage folks who can begin to share the importance and structure of setting up the foundations of a small business first, as it is the majority of the work that needs to be done daily to find success.

cheers,

rody

[drwelby]

Now that I have finally finished all the courses, and I mean ALL the courses (frames and mechs), I would like to have a civil and frank discussion about what I may or may not have accomplished. Helped me or hindered?

...

I am setting up a framebuilding operation now, but I want to begin with a standard model at a very low price point.

Well, you now have a realistic idea of what sort of labor and equipment goes into a framebuilding shop, and that's pretty valuable. I think you said you were taking some business classes so soon you'll have some understanding about the other things you need to keep a business afloat.

I think the part you're missing is that you don't know what you're competing against. A basic no-frills mid-range 7000 series aluminum mountain bike frame is about $30 before paint and decals out of China. A name-brand aluminum stem is about $3 OEM for the bigger players. This may not matter if your business plan says you can make a bike for X and sell enough of them at X+Y to pay the bills. But when I see "very low price point" I think some perspective about where and why price points are where they are would be a good thing to know.

Maybe you can connect with a product manager for one of the bigger brands who could tell you a bit about the OEM market and manufacturing in Taiwan and China, and about hitting price points. Or better yet, get hired in PM and spend some time in Taichung and see how bikes get manufactured when hitting low price points is the goal. And you might fit that sort of position well - you have some knowledge of the bicycle manufacturing process, and from your experience in the Army you are presumably comfortable in foreign countries.

Closer to home, you might want to see if you can tour or at least network with someone at a company like Wald or Worksman. These are companies that have been in your niche for a long time, and have some perspective on what US manufacturing for the broader bicycle industry requires.

[jaredjerome]

Having welded for a company that made everything from frames to sprockets in-house (in the BMX world - production, very rarely anything custom), I disagree that you have to compete with companies that exploit labor from China to make products cheap. You do in that both are sold in the same shops, but the clients wanting one do no necessarily want the other (in my opinion). Also, the products are rarely apples:apples.

I do agree with Richard that the type of info you find on this board is more geared towards custom/lower output building (as compared to another group, such as the ind. designer example). I rarely see anything on here that coincides with what I saw welding in the production world. That said, it's still a great resource to see how others do it (and there's no problem expanding your mind in that way).

One other option is you could get a job at a production facility (maybe somewhere near you, such as Zen Fab), and cut your teeth there and see how it's done, while at night building up to do your own thing.

[Dallas Tex]

Thanks for your service.

FWIW, my two cents......... build ten frames and you'll be gain a more factual based position to make your decisions from.

Of course, best of luck to you.

[jaredjerome]

build ten frames and you'll be gain a more factual based position to make your decisions from.

I think this goes a long way figuring out just how cheap you can make your frames too (referencing your "very low price point").
That said, it's going to take a long time to sort that out - a run of 10 frames for production work is pretty small, and the first 10 frames won't be anything like the second 10 frames (and so on). I think it takes at least 10-20 items before you even understand any part your producing (whether it's frames or handlebars or whatever), even within an existing production system (e.g. one that is already up and running that someone else has designed/optimized).

That said, I always complain that the domestic custom world seems flooded, and the production world seems more sparse; so good on you, I suppose.

[EricKeller]

another thing to consider about running a production company is that, as a general rule of thumb, the sunk cost to make a product should be less than 1/5 the final cost or the business is not sustainable. You can argue about that number, but it's in the ballpark. One day at Trek, I asked Bevil Hogg how things were going, and he said it was very hard to figure out if we were making money or not. They had the Burke's money backing them up, that's a real issue to consider. We were shipping bikes as fast as the paint dried.

[David Lewis]

Having welded for a company that made everything from frames to sprockets in-house (in the BMX world - production, very rarely anything custom), I disagree that you have to compete with companies that exploit labor from China to make products cheap. You do in that both are sold in the same shops, but the clients wanting one do no necessarily want the other (in my opinion). Also, the products are rarely apples:apples.

I do agree with Richard that the type of info you find on this board is more geared towards custom/lower output building (as compared to another group, such as the ind. designer example). I rarely see anything on here that coincides with what I saw welding in the production world. That said, it's still a great resource to see how others do it (and there's no problem expanding your mind in that way).

One other option is you could get a job at a production facility (maybe somewhere near you, such as Zen Fab), and cut your teeth there and see how it's done, while at night building up to do your own thing.

I worked at Chris King for 3 1/2 months this summer (I left to go back to school), and this was part of my portfolio of experiences.

It's the night building I plan to do while I am at PCC learning machining, and since the GI Bill will put food on my table, I just need to recoup my expenses. I won't need to build for a profit.

[e-RICHIE]

I worked at Chris King for 3 1/2 months this summer (I left to go back to school), and this was part of my portfolio of experiences.

It's the night building I plan to do while I am at PCC learning machining, and since the GI Bill will put food on my table, I just need to recoup my expenses. I won't need to build for a profit.

How are you gonna do that? I mean, no one but you is gonna ride these, right?

[drwelby]

Having welded for a company that made everything from frames to sprockets in-house (in the BMX world - production, very rarely anything custom), I disagree that you have to compete with companies that exploit labor from China to make products cheap.

I was just going to come back and mention the big US BMX companies as something to look at for lower price points, but looks like you beat me to it. I've been out of that world for a bit, but I think S&M and Solid would be two to look into?

[jaredjerome]

I was just going to come back and mention the big US BMX companies as something to look at for lower price points, but looks like you beat me to it. I've been out of that world for a bit, but I think S&M and Solid would be two to look into?

S&M (Orange County) hires probably the most frequently - Solid (Norcal) and FBM (upstate NY) are great too. Unfortunately they're all a bit of a travel for you. I do not know how frequently Zen needs help (or how much work they do). BMX companies definitely know how to do it cheap!

The Chris King experience is obviously cool, but I mean specifically experience making frames (I'm assuming you plan to make frames). The way I made things for production, and the way I make frames one-off now are wayyyyyyy different. I understand that you want to do it ASAP, but a year or two at a big frame manufacturer wouldn't seem like very long, and you'd get great insight.

[jaredjerome]

I guess I kind of got off-topic.

I don't really know much about UBI. I always assumed that UBI was more geared towards one-off type manufacturing (but like I said, I know fuck-all about it).

If you want to make lots of affordable bikes, I'd assume it's a cool place to learn the basics, but I'd still recommend a job making production frames.

One-off vs. dozens of frames (or whatever component) at a time can be relatively dissimilar. Then again, I don't make bikes commercially anymore, so take what I say with a grain of salt!

[e-RICHIE]

but I'd still recommend a job making production frames.

This atmo.

[PJN]

How are you gonna do that? I mean, no one but you is gonna ride these, right?

So no one can build for others if they are a hobbyist without insurance and without making it a full time job?

Is that how lots got their starts? Carl Strong? Yipsan? I'm sure countless others...

[e-RICHIE]

So no one can build for others if they are a hobbyist without insurance and without making it a full time job?

Is that how lots got their starts? Carl Strong? Yipsan? I'm sure countless others...

You ask them, not me.
But the high road is to only take money for your work IF and WHEN your business (such as it is...) has a product liability package protecting users. Otherwise, no one should use what you make except you, and that extends to giving work away or bartering. No insurance? Then no should be one these units except you, since you probably won't sue yourself if there's a mishap.

[jaredjerome]

All that said, he may plan to get (or possibly already has) insurance.