Frame #0002 Build

[mxboy349]

Well here is the current status of my 2nd Frame. Frame 0001 was finished and can be seen on my Tumblr page. Learned a lot of "what not to do" with the 1st one and it hangs on the wall as a reminder. Starting with a nice package of lugs and tubes I got from Mr. Sachs, built some tooling (some tooling pics here) and now I'm filing away. Just thought I would keep a "blog" here if that's ok. I will also be adding pics to Flickr if you want larger ones.

Here's the plan
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Here's the goods
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Here's how it sits as of tonight.
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I'm going to try and keep this up to date as I go. Enjoy!

[mxboy349]

“Pinned” the lugs. #51 drill and tapered some finish nails. Seemed easy enough. Ready to start with the "Braze-ons" (water bottle bosses, derailleur mount, etc.)

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[boxerboxer]

Nice! Pinned joints always make me think of Hellraiser :)

[mxboy349]

Got the derailleur mount located, the water bottle bosses drilled and drilled vent holes in the head tube. Have a full weekend planned so I don't think I will get much else done. Maybe next week some torch time?

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[mxboy349]

Found some time today and lit the torch. Got things to hot, flux was pretty cooked. Forgot to take pics before clean up. Not quite as clean as some but it is only #0002. Enjoy.

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[mxboy349]

Just a teaser cause I am tired. Full report later. Got the front triangle together.

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[mxboy349]

Well here is my report. Got some time Friday night and was able to get the front triangle brazed together. I’m using Safety-Silv 56 for this .

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Head tube before soak. This was the first joint for the night. Based on the black/scorch, I assume things got a little too hot in those areas?

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Seat lug. Managed to keep the heat under control a little better here. Especially on the lug tips. Those things will heat up fast.

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BB. By the time I made it to the BB I was much better at keeping the heat in check and getting the silver to flow..

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Here is the head tube just out of soak. Got a few extra “globs” and the shore lines are not as clean as some, but it is only Frame #2

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Again some nice extra “globs”, nothing a file won’t take care of.

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BB After soak. Not as many “globs”.

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The seat lug I think I’m most proud of. Yes, there are some “globs” , but I am real happy with the points of the lug.

The following are after a little “Clean up”.
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The seat lug has had very little clean up.

The sequence I used was
1. Tack Head lugs in the jig.
2. Let cool and verify alignment
3. Re-Flux and “free” braze in the stand
4. Let cool and verify alignment
5. Braze Seat Lug
6. Let cool and verify alignment.
7. Tack BB/ST and BB/DT on the alignment table.
8. Let cool and verify alignment.
9. Added some flux and brazed in the stand.
10. Soak to clean off flux.

Some notes:
• “Horrible” Freight’s (Harbor Freight) emery cloth doesn't last long.
• As I have read in many other post on here. “Slowing down and taking a breath” will do wonders for your brazing.
• Even though it’s not socially acceptable I did do some “touch ups” after soaking to a couple of areas I wasn't happy with.
• All in all I am please with the result and looking forward to the next phase.

[Will Outlaw]

Looks good man. Gonna be a fun bike to ride!

[Dallas Tex]

neat thread. Post some pics of inside the bb to show how much penetration that you got.

[mxboy349]

GAAP, not gonna lie penetration in the BB is not the best. It's there but it could be better. Probably could have used a little more flux and a little more heat lower in the socket. Not much I can do about it now, so the show will continue.

[Doug Fattic]

Actually I would try brazing it again. The evils of leaving a partially brazed socket are greater than reheating it. I've repainted a lot of frames in my career and have seen failures when brazing material did not cover every mm of inside surface area. Water gets into the cracks and it starts to rust and eventually it will fail. So the punishment will be long delayed but - like smoking cigarettes - it will come eventually. I never, ever, ever (and another ever for more emphasis) allow a student to not have 100% penetration entirely inside the bb shell. It is simply not acceptable because eventually it will fail. This is not like a history test in which you can pass at 70%. You can only pass if you get 100%. Otherwise it is back to practice until you can do it 100%. Nobody building frames should ever be satisfied with a lesser goal. I have no respect for anybody that builds frames and accepts less. I don't want to sound harsh or be the police but there is a minimum entry standard of acceptable results for anyone wanting to build frames – however that standard sounds when it is spoken or written – and this is one of those minimum standards.

I think the best plan for a beginner is to braze just the seat tube to the bb first – and not in a fixture so it is possible to stick your flame inside (like a flashlight) and see if silver has come all the way down all the way around. Any mistakes here are not difficult or expensive to redo. You are exhibit A on why beginners usually can't get a more complicated double socket bb braze right on their first try.

So before throwing your frame away (which you should if you can't get silver everywhere), lather flux liberally inside and out of the shell. Put plenty up the tubes so it is like a reservoir that can be called on later if you take too long. Preheat the entire joint and then start concentrating the heat on the down tube socket (because it is shorter) below the window. Have the down tube pointing straight up so gravity can aid silver flow. In this particular case your heat zone has to be large enough that the cold mass below the socket isn't robbing heat away and preventing the silver from getting to its destination. Add silver from inside the window. Use a flame pattern that competes your down tube socket braze and then reposition your frame so the seat tube is sticking straight up and so the same thing again with the seat tube joint. Peer inside using your flame as a light (and perhaps encourage the silver to find the voids) to verify that you can see silver all the way down everywhere. If you can't do that, stop, you have failed and need to start over again. Get more instruction, do more practicing, revise your procedures, whatever it takes, but don't leave it as it is because it is eventually going to fail while someone is riding it and it will be your fault.

Good luck on the redo!
Doug

[mxboy349]

Doug, Thanks for the insight. I will try to redo before moving on. What about contamination in the socket already from soaking the flux off? Should I be worried about that? At this point it may get thrown away anyway or at least used as “practice” for the rest of the process (chainstays, seatstays, dropouts and so on). At least I know what to look for next time before soaking. Again thanks for the insight and feel free to “police” my progress anytime.

[Doug Fattic]

Doug, Thanks for the insight. I will try to redo before moving on. What about contamination in the socket already from soaking the flux off? Should I be worried about that? At this point it may get thrown away anyway or at least used as “practice” for the rest of the process (chainstays, seatstays, dropouts and so on). At least I know what to look for next time before soaking. Again thanks for the insight and feel free to “police” my progress anytime.

Eric, There is a good chance that flux will clean the insides good enough for silver to be able to flow. Be liberal with its application both inside and out! In any case you will know if it works because you can look inside and see if the silver has come down while you are brazing. You don't have to rely on intuition like you would on the inside of a fork crown where you can't see silver exit its path. You've got nothing to lose by trying. One of the challenges in brazing tubes to a bb shell is if the angles are enough different from the design that their isn't sufficient clearance for the silver. This is where fit up in preparation is required in order to later be able to successfully braze that joint.

By the way my compliments on your fixture. You have been able to do a lot with a small table.

Doug

[mxboy349]

Had to run home from work and give it a try. Here are my "Redo" Results. Thanks Mr. Fattic and again feel free to "police" away on any of my work.

DT Before. You can see a little silver that was pulled through.
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ST Before. Hard to see any silver.
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Re-Fluxed
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More Flux
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ST after. Nice "flow" of silver. Hard to see through the flux.
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DT after.
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DT after soak.
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ST after soak.
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[Doug Fattic]

Calling me Mr. Fattic takes me back to when I was a high school teacher before I went to apprentice in England. Great to see the silver piled up at the bottom of the seat and down tube. It is reassuring insurance. Congratulations! If that extra silver gets in the way it can be ground out. Sometimes it is helpful to miter the down or seat tube so it sticks out just a little beyond the inside of the shell. This makes it easier to add sliver inside the shell (if that is necessary) by placing it against this ledge created by the extension. It is a hundred times easier that way then if there is only a tiny gap to find. Later the extension can be ground off like that extra silver and made to look like a perfect miter.

[Andrew R Stewart]

To add to Doug's comments about miters in the BB. I remember seeing Bruce Gordon's bikes back in the early 1980s at THE show. His BB shells were sooo cool. The tubes were perfectly mitered, no evidence of there actually being seperate tubes and all was painted flat black. This made me both jelious of his skills and questioning mine. In time I understood that he probably had over inserted the tubes, flowed fully and ground back. Just like Doug mentions, this is the better side of the fence to fall on. Andy.

[mxboy349]

Been away for a while, life gets in the way. I did manage to get my rear dropout fixture completed. Now I am ready to move on to the rear triangle.

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[e-RICHIE]

You're doing a very nice job atmo. I love the systematic approach.

[mxboy349]

Found some time this weekend to get the chainstays fitted.

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[mxboy349]

Got the dropouts attached to the chainstays. Pretty uneventful process. Fit the plug to the stays, drill hole to pin in place, clean both the stay and dropout with AO 80 grit, make a ring of silver and insert it into the stay, flux, heat, add a bit of silver, soak, file. Wish I had more photos of the process. Next up chainstays to BB.

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