Frame Build #1 - 29er

[RyanHeller]

I want to say thank you to everyone at Velocipede Salon for sharing their knowledge and experiences in the frame building world. So far it has been a great resources for me.

My name is Ryan Heller and I am starting my first frame build. My background in cycling is BMX in my younger years and now solely DH and XC mountain biking. I have been a fabricator as my profession for the last 6 years of my life and have a lot of experience MIG and TIG welding. The design for the frame is a fillet-brazed, hardtail, 29'er using a Nova tubeset. The frame will be built jigless with a minimal amount of tooling. I have chosen to fillet braze this frame as I want the challenge of building it with a technique that I haven't used in a few years (and the asthetic qualities are amazing). My hopes are to someday combine my love of fabrication and cycling into a full-time career as a framebuilder. I dream of having the design freedom one has in being self-employed and being truly immersed in fabrication and cycling. In the next year I will be elbows deep in as many frame builds as possible, gaining knowledge and skills that will help me be successful in the future.

So far I have completed my frame drawings based on my body measurements, ordered my tubeset and acquired practice tubing for brazing. My plan is to begin my build on Monday or Tuesday of next week after I return from a business trip. My alotted time for completion is two weeks due to constraints with my job. I ask for all the members of VS to lend me your guidance/advice and your critiscms as I build my first of many frames. Thank you in advance.

Ryan

[suicideking]

Best of luck. Please post progress pics. What state/city are you in?

[ToddFarr]

Just from my experience 2 weeks going along without a jig is probably not enough time. Especially because you are like me and I have a full-time job on the side. If you feel you need more time I suggest to take it. One thing I didn't want to do on my first build is rush it. I took my time, double/triple checked every step and went slow perfecting my technique.

Also, while I can relate to the joys of being self-employed, it's a ton of work. All my friends always give me crap that being self employed is awesome and easy, and that I can take breaks whenever I want. When the truth is I haven't taken a day off in 3 years besides the weekends (I set a rule from the beginning I would never work weekends no matter what, and I've always stuck to it), and that doesn't mean I don't put in 60+ every week. Of course I'm not in the bicycle building industry so others may chime in saying it's different. Most people don't have my work ethic, and you can't really teach someone the passion and drive it takes to achieve it. If you do, then great I say go for it, but make sure you put every bit of yourself into it. If you need inspiration to be great at something I suggest watching the movie "Jiro Dreams of Sushi" on Netflix.

I wish you the best of luck, and please post progress pictures!

[RyanHeller]

Suicideking - Thanks, and I will be sure to post pictures. I am located in Frisco, Texas, north of Dallas.

ToddFarr - I actually have a two week vacation starting next Monday. I work as a racecar mechanic/fabricator and the last race of our season is this weekend. We receive two weeks off because we rarely get any time off during the rest of the year.

I am all into putting my time in and working my hardest to achieve the best result. I wouldn't be in the current industry I am in if that wasn't true. Last year I was working 100+ hours a week for a month straight building a new car after the current car got totaled. Some of my best memories of fabricating were from this time. I would get to the shop at 5am and be totally alone with a clear mind until about 9am when everyone else arrived for work. They would leave at 6pm, I would stay till about midnight again having the ability to think for myself and do what I knew best without any distractions. I guess you could say I'm slightly introverted and love having a place to myself. While I did get a lot accomplished, by the end I was really burnt out because as you said, taking weekends off is a must. Thank you for the encouragement.

[PCW]

I am located in Frisco, Texas, north of Dallas.

Ryan, if you need any help/advice, I'm in Richardson. I've also got the Paterk manual that you're welcome to borrow if you'd like.

Unsolicited advice:
If you can already TIG, TIG it. Build a couple with a familiar process before moving onto an unfamiliar process. If your time frame were open ended, I'd say go down that brazing path if you'd like but since you have a rigid schedule, TIG it. Also, with your schedule, I'd order one more set of tubing just so you have extras. It gets more expensive when you ruin a TT or DT and are 2daying or overnighting a replacement when the schedule is tight. Having a whole extra set isn't all that expensive if it isn't fancy stuff and like you said, you want to build more than one so it will all get used at some point anyway.

[Willie1]

Ryan, I did a lot of fabrication/hotrodding when I was growing up on the farm. I thought: a bike frame, how hard can that be? Well, if you have a history of doing body work with thin sheet metal, then you are a step ahead. I had to scrap my first frame half way through because I made too many mistakes, and cannot trust the metal is not too brittle now from excess heating. A good foundation helps, but it is learning new skills specifically to this application. The amount of pondering HTA, STA, rake, trail, FC,CS length, BB drop, and TT length boggles my mind. I have a pretty good grasp of bike geometry but when it is my frame, my labour, my name, the second guessing takes over. The thin tubing cannot tolerate the heat variation that thicker tubing can (such as a motorcycle frame.) I suggest ordering 2 of everything, to keep the supplies on hand if/when a mistake happens.

[RyanHeller]

PCW - Thanks for the offer. My one main concern with TIG is I don't have the proper heatsinks for the HT, BB, or ST. Without them I am afraid that I will end up with too much distortion.

Willie1- That is a second recommendation for another set of tubes. Looks like I better get ordering.

I do have a question relating to the BB, DT, ST junction. With the 38mm DT I am using, it will run into the miter of the ST. Is it better to leave the DT with the full miter, or the ST with the full miter? This will have to be addressed regardless of which method I use for joining, TIG or fillet braze. I have run both scenarios in my head and can see advantages/disadvantages to both. Hopefully my drawing will help explain my problem.


IMG_0017 by RyanHeller, on Flickr


IMG_0018 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

[Willie1]

All the guides I have read suggest either ovalizing the downtube, or mitring the downtube. Remember i am very new at this. Others can suggest other options if I am off base. The head tube junction may need to be ovalized as well depending on the diameter of the head tube and down tube.

[Rody]

Ryan,

I enjoy your enthusiasm...it leaps off the page.

A bit of free advice to ensure that your enthusiasm continues with your dreams:

Scale back your goals. It is obvious from the initial hurdles and questions you are posing that you would benefit greatly from spending your initial two weeks researching the various build processes, tips and techniques, and material considerations that encompasse fabricating a performance frame, then applying them to practice pieces/assemballies before embarqing on a full build.

Many of the builders that frequent these pages document the steps of the fabrication process in blogs and web pages, sharing important information that will increase your knowledge base and your efficiency. It is recommended that the best way to learn is to follow the footsteps of other, avoiding their pitfalls, and allowing you to refine the technique necessary rather than making this a journey of discovery.

As for professional ambitions...

"My hopes are to someday combine my love of fabrication and cycling into a full-time career as a framebuilder. I dream of having the design freedom one has in being self-employed and being truly immersed in fabrication and cycling."

Understand that as long as you wish to be paid, you need customers, and ultimately, they define the parameters of the build. As a professional, so often you build what the customer needs, not what you want to build to satisfy your own artistic fullfillment. I am fortunate that I have so many trusting customers that allow me the freedom of design I do have. That freedom has come with a price...over 18 years of professional bicycle fabrication. Actively listening by asking the right questions, analyzing feedback and applying them to the design, and building a personal relationship of trust with each customer are some of the most critical skills that are so often neglected. Success in this profession often balances on that skill set.

With perseverance and vision, you too can reach your "hopes", but understand, it will take years before you are ready to accept the responsibility of your customers health and safety by selling a frame.

Take your time, nurture your skill set, and you will reach your dream.

my 2 cents...worth exactly what you paid for it :)

Have fun,

Rody

[Will Outlaw]

I think it's great so many first time builders are posting up. I dig watching the progress, and yes, the more pics the better.

It's driving me crazy that #3 is all mitered up and just sitting on my work bench gathering dust because real life has been getting in the way over the past six weeks.

At least I get to live vicariously through the rest of you guys. :-)

The only advice I can add: Have fun and enjoy the process. It's a bike after all.

[Dallas Tex]

Ryan,

Dallas? You should come by my shop thursday night. Couple guys come by to work on stuff, use the equipment, and drink beer. email info@rideDaltex.com for directions

will we see you at the Texas Custom Bicycle Show this year? Texas Custom Bicycle Show 2012

GT

[RyanHeller]

Rody - Thank you for the advice. I have been reading over the Paterek manual pretty consistently (made it front to back twice so far) over the last three months. It is a lot to take in and remember given the step by step nature that is outlined. So far it has been an excellent resource on the build process and sequencing for a build. I am sure I will refer back to it many times during my frame construction.

woutlaw - Thanks for the encouragement, hope I don't disappoint.

GAAP - Thank you for the invite. Unfortunately I am currently on a plane to Connecticut for work and won't be back till Sunday (I will be missing Critical Mass as well ).

I have the Texas Handmade Bike Show on my calendar of events to attend. My travel schedule may interfere but I will hopefully be able to make it out on Sunday, the 28th.

-----------
Following the advice given by Willie1, I did some more research on my BB joint dilemma. I have seen two ways of accomplishing this without distorting any of the tubing shape. Both involve compound mitering the DT instead of the ST which was the main source of my question. One technique involved tacking the complete front triangle together and then fully welding/brazing. The other involved fully welding/brazing the ST to the BB and then completing the rest of the front triangle. I prefer the second method because of the fact that you have a fully welded joint directly to the BB. That is the way it is would be performed if you have multiple tubes joining at one intersection (nesting) in a roll cage, which is what I am used to seeing.

I also looked into TIG welding a frame without heatsinks. From what I have read, it is possible, but will definitely make the facing/reaming process a little more difficult. I could machine some heatsinks on the lathe at work, but would rather not get heavy into the tooling process on my first frame and focus more on the process of building. I am still leaning toward fillet brazing this frame.

[Willie1]

I went to Princess Auto- the Canadian version of Harbour Freight, and found some larger bushings and steel sleeves to use as heat sinks. I found they worked quite well for what they cost. There was a bit of distortion, but not nearly as much as without.

[afwalker]

Sputnik tools sells heat sinks, $75-175
Heat Sinks
cheers
andy walker

[PCW]

I also looked into TIG welding a frame without heatsinks. From what I have read, it is possible, but will definitely make the facing/reaming process a little more difficult. I could machine some heatsinks on the lathe at work, but would rather not get heavy into the tooling process on my first frame and focus more on the process of building. I am still leaning toward fillet brazing this frame.

I did my first two without them (I suppose I didn't know any better) and didn't have a problem and was probably not as accomplished of a TIG welder at the time as you are. I'd still push you towards this for #1 as there is already enough to have to do without picking up fillet brazing along the way--also, consider that TIG will save you a ton of time, something you are also limited on. Facing and reaming is simple, quick, and easy--and if you don't have the tools, your LBS sure does. I'd loaned my ST reamer to someone and didn't have it for my second frame and took it to the LBS. The wrench there was so excited to be reaming the ST of a custom made in the garage frame that he didn't even charge me for reaming it. You'll find that folks come out of the woodwork to help you along your journey on #1. Also, look up do a search on MTBR for "WWTP". It's exactly what you're doing, 29er in steel, flat surface, blah blah blah, start to finish tutorial...

[afwalker]

Or make your own:
EBB anti distortion slug. | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
this was for an eccentric bottom bracket but the same idea works:)
cheers
andy walker

[afwalker]

Or how about using this and take the rubber bands off:
http://www.harborfreight.com/catalog...ipe%20expander
that would be a non-purging heat sink:)
cheers
andy walker

[afwalker]

And another great source for bicycle framebuilding bits is this:
Heatsinks - all - www.paragonmachineworks.com
here's their purge-able heatsinks.
Ok that's all the ideas I have, next:)
andy walker

[progetto]

Whichever way you go, make sure that you fully weld / braze the seat tube then fit the down tube. The same would go for any junction that had over lapping tubes.
Bill

[RyanHeller]

After a long weekend at the race track I am finally able to update this thread. The end of the race season has finally come with us getting 3rd place in our last race. Two weeks of freedom ahead. I received my tubing and dropouts yesterday in the mail. I decided to take it easy yesterday, so today was my first day working on the frame. I spent the day making tube blocks, mitering some practice tubing, and practicing my brazing. All went pretty well once I got the hang of brazing again.


IMG_0041 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

I ended up mitering my practice tubing by eye and was getting really good results. When I build my frame I will use a tube mitering program to make them perfect.


IMG_0027 by RyanHeller, on Flickr


IMG_0028 by RyanHeller, on Flickr


IMG_0029 by RyanHeller, on Flickr


IMG_0030 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

Check out this little clamp I found at Lowe's. It was on sale for half price and I bought the last two.


IMG_0025 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

First brazed tubes (tinned and fillets with 1/16", soaked in water)


IMG_0035 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

Second brazed tubes (tinned with 1/16", fillets with 3/32", soaked in water)


IMG_0036 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

Third brazed tubes (tinned with 1/16", fillets with 3/32", lower flame on fillets)


IMG_0038 by RyanHeller, on Flickr

My brazing progessively got better as I experimented with different torch settings and using 3/32" filler for the fillets. I left them in a bucket of water to work off some of the flux and will clean them up tomorrow. Any advice or comments are appreciated.