filler for tig (853 mostly)

[shand]

Hi,

I'm going to spark up my tig machine this week and wreck some scrap. It's been a loooong time since I did any proper tig stuff so I need to get some serious practice torch time.

They guys at Reynolds recommend ER-70S-6 for 853 and most of their other steels, can I use this if I want to practice on some mild steel scraps too? Any other filler I should be looking at? Also for bike stuff, what size rod are you using? My local welding supplier carries 1.6, 2.4 and 3mm.

I know these are basic questions but my prior tig experience was a good while ago and I can remember almost nothing about it!

If anyone has any dos and dont's that aren't obvious, or top tips, I'm all ears.

Cheers

Steven

[RCP FAB]

Do's and don'ts:

Don't use er70 for bike frames

Do use 880-T

In all reality er70 works, but 880-T works better. Flows better, has more elasticity, just a better filler rod for our application.

Its a pain to get, and only comes in 10lb tubes. I sell it by the pound, so do a few other builders. A pound in all reality will do a bunch of frames. Depending on how you weld, 20-50 frames.

I only use .045" (1.15mm), smaller you really need to feed it in, bigger is just too much, cools the puddle too fast and tends to make a mess.

[shand]

Do's and don'ts:

Don't use er70 for bike frames

Do use 880-T

In all reality er70 works, but 880-T works better. Flows better, has more elasticity, just a better filler rod for our application.

Its a pain to get, and only comes in 10lb tubes. I sell it by the pound, so do a few other builders. A pound in all reality will do a bunch of frames. Depending on how you weld, 20-50 frames.

yeah, I'd heard that but getting 880-T here in the UK seems impossible and I'm not sure what the equivalent is. I've heard 312 is similar.

Do's and don'ts:
I only use .045" (1.15mm), smaller you really need to feed it in, bigger is just too much, cools the puddle too fast and tends to make a mess.

Cheers, good to know.

[RCP FAB]

312 isn't really the same. I'll ship you 880-T to the UK if you want to go that route.

[shand]

312 isn't really the same. I'll ship you 880-T to the UK if you want to go that route.

Cheers I appreciate that but I really need to find something that's more readily available over here.

[JFW]

Weldmold was nice to deal with directly when we bought from them a couple of years ago. Apparently they have a euro-distributor in Italy, but it should'nt be to hard to get them to ship overseas. A tube or two will last you a long time.

Truls

[Mike Mcdermid]

I use weld mild here you can buy from Spain or italy

[Rosko]

...

Don't use er70 for bike frames

.

Please elaborate.

[RCP FAB]

Please elaborate.

I thought I did:

"In all reality er70 works, but 880-T works better. Flows better, has more elasticity, just a better filler rod for our application."

[Rosko]

Just curious to hear your reasoning for recommending against what Reynolds themselves recommend for the material posed in the OP. I personally use both and feel they have their place but I'd be hard pressed to tell someone NOT to use what is the standard filler material for MOST Chro-Moly alloy frames constructed by TIG welding.

As to the original query, here are the specs for welding 853 from Reynolds...
(apologies took a minute to dig it up)
7884043592_5910034fc7_z.jpg
7884043480_11cb3bf8d3_z.jpg

[edoz]

They guys at Reynolds recommend ER-70S-6 for 853 and most of their other steels, can I use this if I want to practice on some mild steel scraps too?

ER-70S-6 is an appropriate filler for mild steel. In fact, it can be your go-to rod for most projects that don't require a specific filler. I'll let the rest of you guys argue the 853 filler:)

[RCP FAB]

Rosko, the do and dont thing was more of a joke than anything, he asked for do and dont tig tips.

[Proparc]

Steven you have to decide if you are going to use; what the specs say or what the bike building pros actually use. The guys that know their business use 880T or 308L. I would not use er70s.

[shand]

Thanks for all the info guys. It's really interesting stuff. I tend to get quite involved in this kind of thing and it's interesting to me to read the specs and documentation for this kind of thing and then hear first hand experience of people doing almost the exact opposite.

My initial reading on this led me to believe that I shouldn't be looking at stainless filler (300) but that the ER70 was the way to go. It seems most people are telling me not to use ER70. I'm not sure if that's because it's inherently the wrong filler or just that there's better out there.

It looks like getting smaller quantities of 880T is going to be difficult although I have placed an order with the distro in Spain. I'd like to try out as much rod as I can before I commit to anything. ER70 is available quite easily, as is 308.

Just a point of note on the ER70, no one's really said what it is that's wrong with it. Is it just that there's better rod for the application? I'm also curious as to why material producers and mills would recommend something so specific if there's clearly a better filler.

Cheers

[Mike Mcdermid]

Thanks for all the info guys. It's really interesting stuff. I tend to get quite involved in this kind of thing and it's interesting to me to read the specs and documentation for this kind of thing and then hear first hand experience of people doing almost the exact opposite.

My initial reading on this led me to believe that I shouldn't be looking at stainless filler (300) but that the ER70 was the way to go. It seems most people are telling me not to use ER70. I'm not sure if that's because it's inherently the wrong filler or just that there's better out there.

It looks like getting smaller quantities of 880T is going to be difficult although I have placed an order with the distro in Spain. I'd like to try out as much rod as I can before I commit to anything. ER70 is available quite easily, as is 308.

Just a point of note on the ER70, no one's really said what it is that's wrong with it. Is it just that there's better rod for the application? I'm also curious as to why material producers and mills would recommend something so specific if there's clearly a better filler.

Cheers

Heres a suggestion


why not do your own R&D and get some weld coupons tested that will solve your problem.


880t will provide a higher elongation ( tensile versus strain logging ) to failure than er70 this is proven at least


the higheest fatigue test result were not even tig welded but then never the tig welds never failed at the weld either


This seems to contradict what has been written before and also what many would believe to be gospel so why not do some tests then see if you can correlate a result
Reading up on what has been done before in aerospace might give you a starter for 10 but refining your actual process prep etc will prove variance in filler materials can be negligible what works for one might not work for the next guy


As with anything go read some varying opinions on joining CroMo on the various aircraft boards er70 can be shit or the best thing since sliced bread i guarantee youll come back confused....however when i held my lloyds ticket ER70 was the certified material for 4130 engine mounts made fabricated from annealed condition material.....go figure

No one says whats wrong with something because they dont have test data and when they do its quite a few years gone by (probably) the material manufacturers wont tell you what to use as a definite because joining it isnt their problem , if they did and it failed do you think they want the Bill...far easier to leave it to you for material selection and joining method this way its all your fault if something aint quite right ,folks look to a related industry for us that aero and motorsport that has the long standing history of making light strong things so those are the guys you need to look at for any historic info as a lot of bike building materials were borrowed from those kind of industries

[Rody]

Steven,

Any fabricator that works in bicycles MUST have a great variety of filler available to them, as the variety of materials and processes are so diverse. As I look at my shelf, I have over 11 different filler types and 2-3 sizes diameter of each for changing conditions for the steel, Ti, and Aluminum I work with.

Included is ER70S - 6 and 2, Weldmold, straight 4130....you get the picture.

To provide my perspective to your question, I believe that Reynolds has spec'd a filler material that meets both the molecular and performance goals of their tubing while being widely available globally.

Many have suggested using 880, which retains many of the same resultant qualities of the ER series, but adds in the ability to flow/feather the puddle due to it's chemical composition. Is it easier to weld with? That's a matter of personal perspective.

I find that if you are running straight current and feeding the puddle, the ER70 series has an advantage for beginners, as it is less likely to melt and drop as the filler is advanced towards the weld zone. A benefit if you have hesitent welders working to refine their techinque and tend to be a bit slow. Running with a pulser, a higher peak amperage is necessary to provide good penetration and flow of the filler.

The 880 will, as a generalization, deposit with more ease and tends to feather out at a lower temperature, providing a nice even transition line on the bead.

Your goal is to advance your skill set and broaden your ability to meet your customer's needs, working with both fillers will provide that diversity and increase your technical ability.

Good luck,

rody

[shand]

Does anyone want to buy a tig welder?

[bastl]

Hi Steven!

The most important thing is to use 1 mm rods. 1.6 mm does not work, as stated above.

I use ER80S-G because it is recomendet by Columbus.
For connections to stainless material I use ER309L-Si.

Welding is not an exact science. Start practicing on scrap with ER70, because that rod is easily available. And yes, it works with mild steel too. And then try out the Weldmold 880, and you will see the difference.

Happy welding!
Sebastian

[Dornbox]

+1 with Rody and basti

I have a small collection of fillers as well. However, I use mostly ER70-6 and 880T and the decision between the two mostly depends on the color of underwear that I happen to be wearing that day, with the exception of stainless pieces (880T only when SS is in the mix or 309 but normally 880T). The -6 in the ER70 rods is important because it has a little more voodoo in it that allows it to feather out more, like 880T, but without the dripping or creeping cause by a lower melting point. I used to weld everything with super fine wire, now I use .045 99% of the time but will still reach for the small stuff for specific applications. The only thing that I find that really makes a world of difference is heat sinks. Once I started to use a heat sink on every joint my obsession with which rod flowed better ended. With that removed, you can't go wrong with either a ER70 or 880T rod... unless you're welding stainless.

Keep it simple. If the MFG recommends it and says it works, it will work. Now remove your ebay listing for your welder and go burn some rod -Chris