Why are people so horrible?

[nebraskacycling]

Gunman kills 12 in Colorado movie theater - CNN.com

This is terrible :(

[Brandon White]

I said the same thing when I read it. "What the f*** is wrong w/ people?"

I don't understand the motivation or the thought process behind this. Not that I understand most of it, but at least some motives are known for some of these situations.

[j44ke]

They have the suspect. He is in college and 24 years old. The mother was shocked but not surprised evidently when reporters reached her. Schizophrenia manifests itself symptomatically in the early twenties. It can be a sudden psychotic event or it can be a gradual slide from rational to irrational to dangerous. On admittedly very little evidence, he has at least begun to fit the description.

My college girlfriend worked at a state mental health hospital. There were several people there who had been committed for schizophrenia. They were former students of the same college I and my girlfriend attended. There were year books in the college library from past years, and when we looked back through them, we could find shiny happy photos of each of the people. We had sort of doubted the stories they told my girlfriend. Sometimes it is hard to separate the truth in what they said from things they made up for effect or out of boredom or in order to manipulate people and situations. But I found it shocking at the time. It made me go and study schizophrenia in greater depth, because as someone who was in their early twenties and at college, it felt pretty close to home.

Of course, the details will come out over the next few days. We'll see whether mental illness had a role or if this person had something more deeply seated and willful as their motivation.

[monadnocky]

It's important to keep in mind that, even if this individual does have a diagnosis of schizophrenia, the vast majority of people who suffer from it are completely nonviolent. Other serious psychiatric diseases, in fact, account for more violent acts, but these don't grab attention like a thoght disorder does.

I don't have a lot of inpatient experience under my belt, but as I look back on the little I do have, none of the folks with whom I've worked who suffered from schizophrenia were at all violent, much less menacing. They were all vey sad, broken people, but I never felt an ounce of fear being around any of them. I've felt fear being around seriously mentally ill patients, but the diagnoses were different.

Not saying people with the disorder can't be violent, but you get my drift. Most of these folks are more likely to be the recipients of violence, not the perpetrators.

Why are people so horrible? I guess the answer is in the question?

[j44ke]

It's important to keep in mind that, even if this individual does have a diagnosis of schizophrenia, the vast majority of people who suffer from it are completely nonviolent. Other serious psychiatric diseases, in fact, account for more violent acts, but these don't grab attention like a thoght disorder does.

I don't have a lot of inpatient experience under my belt, but as I look back on the little I do have, none of the folks with whom I've worked who suffered from schizophrenia were at all violent, much less menacing. They were all vey sad, broken people, but I never felt an ounce of fear being around any of them. I've felt fear being around seriously mentally ill patients, but the diagnoses were different.

Not saying people with the disorder can't be violent, but you get my drift. Most of these folks are more likely to be the recipients of violence, not the perpetrators.

Why are people so horrible? I guess the answer is in the question?

Very true. The guy in Norway was diagnosed as having a narcissistic personality disorder, and while the person in Arizona who shot Gabrielle Giffords was diagnosed as schizophrenic, he was also said to have a bipolar condition that may have actually been the driving force behind the act. Schizophrenia is not in and of itself an automatic cause of violent behavior.

[j44ke]

This from Washington Post:

Dr. Michael Welner, a forensic psychiatrist who is chairman of The Forensic Panel, a practice in New York City, has worked on mass-shooting cases for many years and shared some general thoughts about these kinds of incidents:

“Mass shooting cases have the common motive of an attacker seeking immortality. Each of the attackers have different degrees of paranoia and resentment of the broader community. Some are so paranoid that they’re psychotic. Others are paranoid in a generally resentful way but have no significant psychiatric illness. But you have to hate everyone in order to kill anyone. The threshold that the mass shooter crosses is one in which he decides that his righteous indignation and entitlement to destroy is more important than the life of any random person that he might kill.”

“This is why mass shooting are invariably, invariably carried out by people who have had high self esteem. They are people who had high expectations of themselves. It’s not at all surprising to hear about these crimes in people who either valued their own intelligence or their own career prospects at one time.”

“They’re people who are unfailingly unable to form satisfying sexual attachments and their masculinity essentially gets replaced with their fascination for destruction.”

“The overwhelming majority of folks who do this are male because of how, in our culture, masculine identity is so closely tied to the capacity to destroy.”

[fmbp]

I'm right with Monadnocky in his assessment of violence and patients with schizophrenia. I've spent my share of time on inpt. psychiatric units (although I was wearing the white coat and had the access badge to let myself back out!).

That said, there's a healthy literature on violence and schizophrenia, and this recent review is pertinent: Overview of violence to self and others du... [J Clin Psychiatry. 2012] - PubMed - NCBI

[Brandon White]

He also booby-trapped the shit out of his apartment. Police still haven't figure out how to make the building safe.

I haven't read one article that said he is schizophrenic though. You'd think the media would point that out.

[vertical_doug]

I grew up in north central Minnesota. As soon as I was 12 and passed my gun safety course, I went hunting. First with my father, then as I grew older, my brother and friends. We had reloaders in the basement and gun racks full of rifles and shotguns. For the life of me, I cannot see how the U.S. allows something like a AR15 Assault rifle to be sold to the general population.

Two years ago when I was back home for my parents Wedding anniversary, I went to the local gun shop which I frequented as a child. The child in me remembered looking at the racks of rifles and shotguns. The decoys, the blaze orange clothing, the duck calls etc. Now the shop has been successful but for the wrong reasons. It had expanded to two stories. The second floor was wall to wall assault weapons. All looking like accidents waiting to happen. If you really think you need one of these for self-defense, then you must be in some really deep shit.. You can't hunt with it and it only looks good for causing mayhem.

[j44ke]

I haven't read one article that said he is schizophrenic though. You'd think the media would point that out.

Neither have I, though the Washington Post has started to posit explanations re: the mindset of mass killers. The OP asked why people are horrible. I was offering a suggestion but not a diagnosis. Fortunately we have people more qualified than I am to suggest explanations, some of them here with entries above^^.

[Matthew J]

Neither have I, though the Washington Post has started to posit explanations re: the mindset of mass killers. The OP asked why people are horrible. I was offering a suggestion but not a diagnosis. Fortunately we have people more qualified than I am to suggest explanations, some of them here with entries above^^.

From what I've read, the parents are en route from Cali to Colorado. The perp's medical records would not be public (and it is not a stretch to assume a young adult living alone in Colorado probably did not have access to regular care in any event). The press will not be able to get his medical background for a while. I would not be surprised if some sort of sudden onset mental health issue turns up.

But to answer the original question - I am an amateur history buff - wish it were not so, but in my opinion the real question should be, 'Why are people so often horrible?'

[nebraskacycling]

I think that may be a better question. And Colorado again? I remember sometimes hearing professionals say that mass murderers can't tell what's real and what is fantasy, or that someone can't mentally comprehend that what they are doing is wrong. For me it's hard to logically understand no matter how different someones brain is that they could possibly think that murder is okay. It seems that they can think somewhat to plan out the set up at his apartment and plan to have multiple weapons and smoke bombs (gas grenades?) that they would know it is wrong.

@vertical_doug I think the argument is that if criminals can get them illegally then we need them to protect ourselves (semi-automatic weapons). One of my buddies before used to own one and I was baffled at how easily he said he bought it.

It seems very odd that this guy wanted to live. From previous examples in my lifetime it seems that the shooters kill themselves or make sure they get killed. With a vest on it sounds like he was planning to survive, but not escape which seems different.

[vertical_doug]

Nebraskacycling, That is the traditional NRA Straw man argument. It doesn't hold. There is a point as a society where we need to restrict certain types of weapons. Instead of 71 victims, maybe we reduce the number to 20 victims or 10 or 5. Not perfect, but at least headed in the right direction. And before anyone argues that it isn't just the United States and points out the Utoya island attack in Norway, Anders Breivik bought some of his stuff from the United States via the internet.
The U.S. export product is depravity instead of freedom and we are all being misled by our media.

[nebraskacycling]

I agree. I don't believe in that argument at all, but that's one I've heard. I stopped talking to that guy soon after I heard about his weird gun hobby. I'm all for gun ownership, but think there should be a limit.

[Veloraptor]

Perhaps the better question is why would a nation have laws which permit a private citizen to easily acquire a rifle capable of carrying over 100 rounds in a clip, or a handgun that can be clipped with 10-20 rounds of ammo which basically permits shooting dozens of people in rapid succession without having to reload???

Answer - NRA, the gun makers, their milti million $ annual lobbying effort, and the fruitcakes who avidly defend and support them.

[Veloraptor]

Agree, No sane or justifiable reason why these types of assault rifles capable of carrying dozens of rounds of ammo or even Glocks for that matter should be legal and readily available to ordinary citizens. These multi round guns have been used in virtually every mass killing in the USA for decades.

Funniest, of all, it is the NRA gun whackos and their drone bee followers who claim, "one shot one kill" , and profess if you know what you are doing you should not have to fire all sorts of rounds to protect yourself from some imagined home invasion. If thats true, why the need for handguns and rifles that carry ten or more rounds???.?? Git Er Dumb

[Veloraptor]

PS the second amendment assures the right tp bear arms. It does not assure the right to bear an AR 15 or any other multi round weapon. The amendment was adopted in 1791 when you did not have multi round clipped Glock, rifles and other semi auto pistols. Time for the people to stop the insanity perpetuated by a small clan of mindless buffoons, many of whom support this crap for financial reasons - think NRA and gun manufacturers, munitions makers, and their resellers, along with their drone bee followers. I have no issue with a law abiding citizen owning a gun. No citizen should have the ability to buy semi auto pistols or rifles carrying more than say 5 rounds of ammo in a clip. Another huge mass killing that lies right at the feet of the NRA, gun maker, munitions makers and their kooky sycophants.

[Saab2000]

PS the second amendment assures the right tp bear arms. It does not assure the right to bear an AR 15 or any other multi round weapon. The amendment was adopted in 1791 when you did not have multi round clipped Glock, rifles and other semi auto pistols. Time for the people to stop the insanity perpetuated by a small clan of mindless buffoons, many of whom support this crap for financial reasons - think NRA and gun manufacturers, munitions makers, and their resellers, along with their drone bee followers. I have no issue with a law abiding citizen owning a gun. No citizen should have the ability to buy semi auto pistols or rifles carrying dozens or rounds of ammo in a clip. Another huge mass killing that lies right at the feet of the NRA, gun makes and their kooky apologists.

I'm inclined to agree. I'd like to leave the politics out for a while but eventually this MUST be addressed and it's going to get ugly and highly political. The NRA has become this organization which nobody is prepared to confront. Everyone is afraid of them. But you're basically right I think.

[WadePatton]

it's not about the guns. don't make it.

any motivated individual can massacre folks with any number of methods. i'll not name any, so that i'm not "arming" the mindfucks that do such.

more folks are killed by pharmaceutical products than by criminals and motor vehicles (and that's saying something to beat motor vehicles).

But what if six jumbo jets crashed every day in the United States, claiming the lives of 783,936 people every year? That would certainly qualify as a massive tragedy, wouldn't it?

Well, forget "what if." The tragedy is happening right now. Over 750,000 people actually do die in the United States every year, although not from plane crashes. They die from something far more common and rarely perceived by the public as dangerous: modern medicine. article: Statistics prove prescription drugs are 16,400% more deadly than terrorists

why are folks so happy to gobble these deadly and expensive pills and potions? why are such substances and institutions held in such reverence and power? why are docs so quick to hand them out? why are we convinced that everything would be okay if the govt would help us pay for them? why are some non-lethal alternatives federally prohibited?

-also, that article just happened to be the first one i found on point, i'm sure there are more and more scholarly versions, but have a life to attempt to live as well. IOW don't make a bunch of hay over the article itself. it's the concept.

[Chad]

Veloraptor

I don't totally disagree, although you paint with a pretty broad brush, but why stop at 5 rounds? What is the magic number of bullets that can be "legally" held in the chamber? I'm an avid waterfowler, using a Benelli SBEII that holds 5 rounds, one could certainly do plenty of damage with it if inclined to do so.

Handguns and assault weapons scare me as their intended use is to kill people. In my mind shotguns and rifles are for hunting. I own one handgun that I inherited and it kind of gives me the creeps, plan is to trade it in on a deer rifle. That being said, each time something like this occurs I get one step closer to obtaining a concealed carry permit. One person in that theatre, carrying, could have possibly saved a few lives. I hate the idea of living in fear and I really don't want to go there.

Unfortunately people that are determined to harm others will find a way. You will not stop mass killings by outlawing certain types of guns. Look at the middle east, explosives are their weapon of choice.