Looking for a good table saw

[jmgorman]

I know there are a couple of woodworkers and cabinet makers around these parts, so I thought I'd see if I could find any recommendations for a new table saw. I've been making due with my old Sears radial arm saw for too long and my wife, having seen my latest jig for making the wood do what I need it to, insists she wants to get me a decent table saw.

I started looking around some, but it seems like the market has changed significantly since I last shopped for a cabinet saw more than a decade ago (the price has more than doubled among other things!). I don't know that I need a cabinet saw, but would sure like one for stability and dust control. I need something stationary and single phase and no bigger than 3hp. The market seems to have changed on me with Delta having fallen in people's estimation and Powermatic now showing very well. What of the others? Do Jet, Shop Fox, Granite, Grizzley and Steel City have anything to offer or are they the low-price/low-quality brands they used to be? What of the hybrid saws that Jet and Dewalt (and craftsman for that matter) now sell - are they worth looking at? Alternately, does anyone know of any dealers or sources for used equipment in the DC area? I have a good fence already and the patience to rehabilitate an old work horse, but google isn't finding anything for me. Should I be thinking of anything else?

[Tom Officer]

I'm a professional woodworker and have been for 35 yrs. It all really depends on what you're trying to do and how much space you have....are you looking to make a few furniture pieces? Cut up sheets of plywood? Hardwoods or softwoods mostly?

The powermatics and deltas are good machines, as are quite a few others, but you'd be surprised how much you can do with one of the desalt or makita portable job saws, with the right blade and a good homemade cabinet and support table you can cut sheet goods and hardwood.

[dhoff]

I'm a professional woodworker and have been for 35 yrs. It all really depends on what you're trying to do and how much space you have....are you looking to make a few furniture pieces? Cut up sheets of plywood? Hardwoods or softwoods mostly?

The powermatics and deltas are good machines, as are quite a few others, but you'd be surprised how much you can do with one of the desalt or makita portable job saws, with the right blade and a good homemade cabinet and support table you can cut sheet goods and hardwood.

What he said

And I will add, that if you list:
The space that you have
The budget you have
what you want to do with it

It will be easier to answer your questions.

[jmgorman]

Sorry, all good points, I guess here are some answers:
- I am looking to make small furniture pieces - bigger than a box, but no bigger than a bookcase
- I do need to make sure it's hardwood capable. I have a pretty good little cache of blackwalnut, red and white oak and most of the lumber I try to reclaim is hardwood. The thickest I have on hand is some 10/4 walnut, but most is 4/4 and 6/4
- I'm not too worried about plywood. I don't have a truck now, so when I bring anything home, I get it pretty close to size using the panel saw at the retailer
- My shop space is a combo bike/wood shop, but is pretty good sized, 12 x 18 feet. I currently have a 32" fence system from a delta unisaw, so I figure I can use that and limit the size of the saw that way (and I have room for that)
- Budget is kind of up in the air, but I think I have about $1500 to play with.

Mostly I'm looking to use it for smallish projects and around-the-house furniture. For example, I need to finish making my tool chest interior and would really like to make a new over-the-wc cabinet with matching medicine cabinet with some wormy chestnut I found. That sort of scale. I prefer to do joining and smoothing by hand, but I'd like something reliable and safe* that can get everything precisely to size.

*I bring this up because for a while I had a small Craftsman contractor's saw fitted to a nice cabinet that seemed like the most unsafe thing on earth. I swear it was as true and dialed-in as possible, but that thing still made a hell of a racket and shook like nobody's business. Maybe it was just the saw (a bit on the motor mount ended up breaking, after all), but it has kind of scared me away from trying to make a smaller saw into something its not. Still, I'm open to the (specific) suggestion of a contractor's saw.

[Tom Officer]

It might be worth considering one of the small job saws and get a decent bandsaw, that way you can mill up the thicker stuff on the band saw and save some space and $ with the small table saw. Using the right blade goes a long way, but ripping 10/4 hardwood is going to take a 5 hp table saw, but a decent bandsaw (14") will get through it fine with a good blade.

[EricKeller]

I have a PM66, but if I were buying today, I'd probably get a Grizzly G1023 cabinet saw. I wouldn't mind a Sawstop, but you're talking north of $5k there. I think anything worth having has a riving knife now, I wish the PM66 would take one, but the mechanism would be too crazy.

I keep staring at the Incra sled-type miter jigs. I know I could make a sled, but the Incra seems like a really good investment of $250 for the small kinds of parts I make.

[gpl916]

Not a professional but I have been doing the things you mentioned for many years.

I have used an older Powermatic Artisan with a 60" fence. It had a cast iron top and was very heavy. It might be classified as a "contractor" saw, but it's in a different league. This model is only 2hp but the key, for me at least, was using it with 220v power. This made a huge difference. I could rip 2" Oak with no problem.

Having said that, with your budget, a 3hp cabinet saw would be nice. But, the Artisan you can probably pick up used for $500 or $600, and have a lot of money left over for accessories, which can add up quick.

I have also used the Uni-saw, a Jet, and a General. The General is comparable to the Powermatic and is/ or was, made in Canada. Any of these will do what you want.

[John Winston]

delta unisaw, left tilt. Its the benchmark for a reason. Variety of HP. 3HP sweet spot. Will rip and crosscut all day. 5HP and you better know your way around a saw.....holes in concrete block style.

INCRA......I was suckered into one 20 years ago. It collect dust in a corner ever since. IMO, one of the biggest waste of $.

[EricKeller]

INCRA......I was suckered into one 20 years ago. It collect dust in a corner ever since. IMO, one of the biggest waste of $.

me too, even though I never understood why I would want one, but they make some decent looking miter gages now. This was what I was talking about getting

[professerr]

I prefer to do joining and smoothing by hand, but I'd like something reliable and safe* that can get everything precisely to size. I bring this up because for a while I had a small Craftsman contractor's saw fitted to a nice cabinet that seemed like the most unsafe thing on earth. .

I know two of the finest cabinetmakers in the world who exhibit in world renown galleries. Both are missing parts of fingers due to cabinet saw accidents. Both are very, very safety conscious and meticulous. And the cabinet maker son of one of my good friends just had his finger amputated after years unsuccessful surgeries to repair gruesome damage done by a cabinet saw accident.

I can tell by your post that you and your wife are safety conscious. Get a SawStop.

Watch this famous hotdog video and you'll see why: SawStop - The World's Leading Maker of Safe 10-inch Table Saws » Videos
I actually once saw another video where the founder used his OWN FINGER in a demo of the retracting blade.

They are as cheap as $1600, though for the type of fine work you're doing you'll probably end up with something a little higher end. I'd guess the safety feature adds just $400-600 bucks to the cost of a comparable quality saw. That is chump change compared the loss of limb you endure from even a trivial accident, not to mention the medical costs you'll end up absorbing one way or another. It has been a long time since I triggered the brake cartridge, but my recollection is that they cost less than $100 bucks. They are very, very easy to replace and the saw blade typically does not need to be replaced.

They are also superb saws, irrespective of the safety features, and comparable to the very best out there.

Don't be dissuaded by old school blowhards who go on about how a fine craftsman doesn't need a Sawstop or how using one will somehow lead to sloppy shop practices that are somehow more dangerous. They are wrong.

[summilux]

If you can find one used, a Ryobi BT3100 or BT3000 is a fantastic saw. It's aluminum so it's easy to move around, motor is pretty powerful and the fence and miter guage are both very accurate. The stock blade is VERY good. If you don't intend cutting anything thicker than 8/4 or wider than about 30 inches it is a great saw. Sadly, its no longer imported and the Ryobi saws you now find at the Borg are really crappy.

The saw has inspired a Campy-like devotion and I believe it to be the only saw with its own dedicated and active forum (BT3Central Main Page). It is worth scouting CL or other site for a used one. Parts are available if you need.

Oh yeah, I've had one for about 5 years. Done a lot with the saw, both woodworking and home reno. Love it.

[EricKeller]

I can tell by your post that you and your wife are safety conscious. Get a SawStop.

I wouldn't mind having a sawstop, but this is a losing argument with almost any wife I am familiar with. "If it's so dangerous, don't buy one." Granted, the is the old-school blowhard position, but it doesn't stop kickback, which is the accident that I'm most worried about because it's far more likely to happen, and the consequences can be major. Their cabinet saw is a very nice saw, but it goes for over $5k. Their hybrid saw is more than the OP said he wanted to spend. It's too bad the industry didn't manage to adopt this technology back before the lawyers got involved ... oh, wait, it was invented by a lawyer. Unfortunately, it was a matter of greed meeting greed from what I've seen.

[Tom Officer]

Anything that helps from a safety aspect is a good thing. I'm not sold on the saw stops though. 2 things I emphasize with employees is use sharp tools (the right and sharp bladeon the saw) and follow your gut, if you're nervous about an operation, stop and get some help or advice. 35 yrs and all digits in place.

[Tom]

My dad was a professional woodworker and the only two accidents he encountered were both kickbacks on a jointer. Like Mr. Officer says, sharp tools - and whatever you do, don't pull an all-nighter to finish a job. That was my dad's situation in both cases.

In my opinion, having worked for him through my school years, is that most guards on saws are problems waiting to happen - they either clog up so you can't see what's going on, they get in the way so you have to do gymnastics to work around them or they make you get careless. Guards on things like jointers make sense, but on a saw I want that blade right out where I can see it and it never lets me forget to watch out for it.

[Tom Officer]

My dad was a professional woodworker and the only two accidents he encountered were both kickbacks on a jointer. Like Mr. Officer says, sharp tools - and whatever you do, don't pull an all-nighter to finish a job. That was my dad's situation in both cases.

In my opinion, having worked for him through my school years, is that most guards on saws are problems waiting to happen - they either clog up so you can't see what's going on, they get in the way so you have to do gymnastics to work around them or they make you get careless. Guards on things like jointers make sense, but on a saw I want that blade right out where I can see it and it never lets me forget to watch out for it.

Exactly right about the saw blade, keep your eye on it AT ALL TIMES

[professerr]

Their cabinet saw is a very nice saw, but it goes for over $5k. Their hybrid saw is more than the OP said he wanted to spend. It's too bad the industry didn't manage to adopt this technology back before the lawyers got involved ... oh, wait, it was invented by a lawyer. Unfortunately, it was a matter of greed meeting greed from what I've seen.

Well, he said he had $1500, but it was "up in the air" and that a contractor saw was a possibility. A Sawstop contractor saw lists for $1600. Or he can buy a "professional" cabinet saw for with a quality fence, extension table etc for $2300: PCS175-PFA30 | 10" 1.75 HP Professional Cabinet Saw with 30" Fence System, Rails and Extension Table | SawStop | Burns Power Tools

In both cases the 1.5hp motor is fine for the hobby type stuff he's doing.

I don't care at whether the inventor is a lawyer, an ax murderer, or a saint. I care about my fingers. Here's the video of the guy actually demoing the saw on his OWN finger. That's putting your money where your mouth is. SawStop Inventor Walks the Walk - videos - Fine Woodworking

BTW, the Sawstop story is that the inventor took the technology to the big manufacturers but that they refused to adopt the safety technology so he started his own company to make the saws himself. I think that's pretty cool.

[EricKeller]

The Sawstop professional is a very nice looking saw. I definitely think it's worth $2300 I saw one today at a Woodcraft. They had the blade throat plate off, and it's a high quality unit down inside where most saws look a little crude. It also has a very slick mobile base. The only downside would be lack of power. I had a BT3000 for many years that served me well, and it doesn't have much power. That never stopped me from doing what I wanted.