Frame finishing survey. I would be greatly appreciative!

[dbohemian]

Hi everyone,



I have been thinking a lot about my paint business and pretty much just going along blindly as I am wont to do.



I made up a little 10 question survey that if you guys/gals have some time to fill out I would be greatly appreciative.



It is completely anonymous and I will report the findings back to the lists. I believe it will be helpful and I thank you for your time in advance.



Here is the link:



Bike refinishing Survey



I also have a list of bicycle frame specific painters and it is a bit old already and the 10th question is, if you have a painter that is not listed on my list I would like to update it. Please, professionals only for the moment.



http://bohemianbicycles.files.wordpr...formation1.pdf



Thanks again.



Dave

[Archibald]

I also have a list of bicycle frame specific painters and it is a bit old already and the 10th question is, if you have a painter that is not listed on my list I would like to update it. Please, professionals only for the moment.

http://bohemianbicycles.files.wordpr...formation1.pdf

Thanks again.

Dave

That's a damn handy list you have there, Dave. Should get posted as a sticky on every framebuilding forum/chat page. Just think of all the electrons you'd save!

[bellman]

Hey Dave,
I'll do the survey this evening but before It sits out here and gets a lot of play did you intend for it to be just RE-finishing? once you read thru it it seems like you mean new stuff as well.
I'm pretty sure that is what you intended but it seems a little misleading at first. Maybe it could say Finishing/Refinishing?
not trying to create trouble here.
Jake

[dbohemian]

Yes, you are right. I meant it for Finishing/refinishing....

I can't really change it right now as that would skew the results but so far about 40 people have responded and the results are interesting.

[Eric Estlund]

Once you've had this up for a bit it would be interesting to see the results (if you are looking to share, that is). I find this sort of raw data interesting.

[dbohemian]

Once you've had this up for a bit it would be interesting to see the results (if you are looking to share, that is). I find this sort of raw data interesting.

Oh, absolutely I will share. The results so far are kind of what I expected but still enlightening. Hopefully I can get 100 responses we are at 60 now....Keep them coming!

[datas_brother]

Dave (or anybody else),

do you know of a good painter in Germany? Your list seems to cover state side only. I'm having a hell of a time finding someone here and will likely start myself just to get things rolling better.

[dbohemian]

Results of survey:


Framebuilders painting survey Results! | The Bohemian Paint shop


Thanks everyone!



Also my personal thoughts….



Thoughts on results of framebuilders painting survey | The Bohemian Paint shop

[Eric Estlund]

Thanks for posting this!

I noticed a few alarming points in your trends- people hiding their painters, painters with poor communication, and folks looking for "cheap" but high level work.

Just for the record- Keith Anderson paints my bikes. He's super professional, answers all of my questions (and my customers questions), goes above and beyond in the detail department and sends out a superior product in a reasonable time frame. I heartily recommend him for OE and refab paint. Send him bikes- I want him around to keep painting my stuff for as long as he can raise an exacto knife!

[PCW]

I noticed a few alarming pints in your trends- poeple hiding their painters, painters with poor communication, and folks looking for "cheap" but high level work.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with this. I've got a guy that does powder that I don't share with folks on purpose. Mostly it's because he's a motorcycle guy and he's got plenty of work as it is. However, he does a few bike frames--mostly re-finishes for crappy bikes that motorcycle people bring him. He's really cheap compared to what "bicycle" guys tend to charge probably because he just doesn't know what he can charge.

The reason I don't share him is because prior to doing my frame, he'd never done vinyl masking before, didn't know a thing about it, hadn't shot multi-color powder on bikes, and really didn't have a way to accommodate what I wanted--I brought all of that to the table. But I worked with him to develop the process and ended up with something that looked pretty good and didn't have any stickers. So I had to spend my money/time/effort to get the results that Spectrum would charge a lot more for--and I didn't actually get those results either, but I'm a step closer as we both learned a lot and I know what I'd do differently/have him do differently next time.

I see where you're going with this, but "cheap" and "good" can coexist I think--at least with powder guys if folks can work it out like we did. Now there's no question that really nice paint is going to cost more, as it should, but good powder--I mean, he flat told me that he's got $15 in materials to do a whole frame and fork. Mark that up, add in time and overhead, and a really nice job can be done for $100-$200 and he's still making money.

It's got to be a tough business I suppose, especially comparing paint to powder and what can be spent on each of those. All that said, knowing someone's work like Bohemian, I can't say I'd hesitate to send anyone to Dave. When I have "the frame", I'll send it to you too Dave. I know it'll be more than $200 already, but what you do is worth it.

[Chauncey Matthews]

I'm not sure I 100% agree with this. I've got a guy that does powder that I don't share with folks on purpose. Mostly it's because he's a motorcycle guy and he's got plenty of work as it is. However, he does a few bike frames--mostly re-finishes for crappy bikes that motorcycle people bring him. He's really cheap compared to what "bicycle" guys tend to charge probably because he just doesn't know what he can charge.

The reason I don't share him is because prior to doing my frame, he'd never done vinyl masking before, didn't know a thing about it, hadn't shot multi-color powder on bikes, and really didn't have a way to accommodate what I wanted--I brought all of that to the table. But I worked with him to develop the process and ended up with something that looked pretty good and didn't have any stickers. So I had to spend my money/time/effort to get the results that Spectrum would charge a lot more for--and I didn't actually get those results either, but I'm a step closer as we both learned a lot and I know what I'd do differently/have him do differently next time.

I see where you're going with this, but "cheap" and "good" can coexist I think--at least with powder guys if folks can work it out like we did. Now there's no question that really nice paint is going to cost more, as it should, but good powder--I mean, he flat told me that he's got $15 in materials to do a whole frame and fork. Mark that up, add in time and overhead, and a really nice job can be done for $100-$200 and he's still making money.

Whoa, I don't follow you at all.
So you are basically saying that you know you could help your guy get more work, but refuse to? Shouldn't that be the powdercoater's decision to take on or turn away more bike frames?
What self-employed person wants somebody to keep work from them?

[cement shoes]

Dave,

Bryan Meyers is back in the game too. He was/is operating under Fresh Frames and is based in York, PA. I believe Engin's painter is accepting other work too. He is also in PA.

-Tom

P.S. Your work at Cirque was stunning.

[Eric Estlund]

I have no issue with established folks charging low prices because they feel they cover their costs and make a solid profit. I do have issue with customers (ie- US) driving prices down to a non sustainable level for good painter- we just lose painters that way.

I also think that helping a non-bike painter learn a new skill set is great and may help lock YOU into a cheap rate, but if he wants the business it seems only fair to help spread the love.

[Kevin Maxwell Ostrom]

Welcome

This is owned by my friend Pete Avdoulos, who is an amazing painter. I have not had a chance to use him for a bicycle - yet. I have had him paint a few motorcycles which were completely over the top. He is not for the budget minded, but if you are looking for the impossible give him a call. He painted a Python themed motorcycle once and even went as far as to make the primary belt look like snake skin.

Kevin O.

[dbohemian]

P.S. Your work at Cirque was stunning.

Thanks man! I appreciate it.

I want to make it clear that this was a small survey and although I noticed a couple of trends that does not mean that anything is endemic. I.e. A few people hide their sources but most don't.

I really liked the link with the Airbrush guy below. I have been teaching myself to airbrush but really that is more being an artist than an airbrusher. I have a buddy here in Tucson that does stuff like that, so it anyone wants the skulls and titties as I call it, I team up with him. I do the prep, he does the art, I clear and finish it. That way I can offer the world. Problem is those good airbrush guys are not as stupid as us frame painters and they would touch what we do with a ten foot pole for what we do it for.

Powder coating has driven down the overall costs of finishing because it is so efficient of a process. This probably reflects on wet paint when a customer cannot understand why it is 2-3 times as much but it just is what it is. I have considered doing powder but at the going rate I don't think I can do enough volume to make any money and spectrum does such miraculous things with powder it would take me 5 years to get there.

I do agree with Eric though when we do have to be careful about driving pricing down to a point that is unsustainable. We all know that it is bad for the long term to do such things.

[PCW]

Whoa, I don't follow you at all.
So you are basically saying that you know you could help your guy get more work, but refuse to? Shouldn't that be the powdercoater's decision to take on or turn away more bike frames?
What self-employed person wants somebody to keep work from them?

I don't think that's what I'm saying at all. I think I'm saying that my PCer is only doing the bike frame quality I want because I'm helping him do it that way. If he wants to generate more business himself, good for him. But I don't see why I should bring more folks to his business when I was the one that got his process to where it needed to be to do the work. By bringing him the business, it drives up lead times and prices for my work and then what's the point in having him in the first place when Spectrum could do the same job w/ long lead times and higher prices?

He's running a business and can generate (and does a good job at it) his own customer base and is making a living doing it. But me introducing the frame building world to my very own Spectrum alternative is just me shooting myself in the foot huh? I'm willing to share with other frame builders just about anything else from solid models of my frames, to FEA results, to the setup on how I build, welder settings, etc., but back to your point, I don't see keeping my PCer a secret as "alarming".

[Rody]

Dave,

Thanks for the insight, twas an interesting read.

Regarding the overall cost of the finish landing between 100 - 200 bucks, could some of that data be skewed by the percentage of folks who are finishing their own work? I know that I clicked that option as that is my material costs, as I do my own work. I can see how that would reflect a lower number in the final tally than those who are out sourcing. If an fabricator is walking away with a professional finish in liquid for less than 350, the painter is either old school money or slowly dieing from a constant diet of Ramon noodles.

I am quite honestly surprised by the number of folks who are finishing their own work professionally...a few years ago at Nahbs, you could count on one hand the number of builders who maintained complete control of the entire product. I am encouraged that the art of painting is seeing a resurgence amongst bicycle fabricators.

cheers,

rody

[PCW]

Whoa, I don't follow you at all.
So you are basically saying that you know you could help your guy get more work, but refuse to? Shouldn't that be the powdercoater's decision to take on or turn away more bike frames?
What self-employed person wants somebody to keep work from them?

I don't think that's what I'm saying at all. I think I'm saying that my PCer is only doing the bike frame quality I want because I'm helping him do it that way. If he wants to generate more business himself, good for him. But I don't see why I should bring more folks to his business when I was the one that got his process to where it needed to be to do the work. By bringing him the business, it drives up lead times and prices for my work and then what's the point in having him in the first place when Spectrum could do the same job w/ long lead times and higher prices?

He's running a business and can generate (and does a good job at it) his own customer base and is making a living doing it. But me introducing the frame building world to my very own Spectrum alternative is just me shooting myself in the foot huh? I'm willing to share with other frame builders just about anything else from solid models of my frames, to FEA results, to the setup on how I build, welder settings, etc., but back to your point, I don't see keeping my PCer a secret as "alarming".

[dbohemian]

Hi Rody,

You are right. I checked and 14 people who said they do their own also said they pay 100-200 dollars. I guess I didn't make that very clear. I didn't want to buy into the service for one survey and I didn't want to have it too long so people got bored. This has me wanting to do a much broader survey of general framebuilding with an extensive questionaire. My wife is taking a course now where something like this is necessary for her PHD and I think it would be great info.

Still though, the fact is everyone painting their own s--t (PWPTOS) who answered in the 100-200 range really would not be a client of a frame finisher so it still is o.k. I think

It is cool how many are doing their own finish work. I had no idea. Like you I thought it was very, very small. Seems too that a fair bit of hobby builders are starting out finishing their own frames.

I did find at least two instances of hyper-low pricing and it is a little disconcerting. One outfit strips parts off frame, strips paint, powdercoats and refaces HT/BB and taps the BB for 130 dollars. Another offers a chemical paint strip with an Imron/clear refinish for $235

I once had an acquaintance in college that on a bet ate only boxed mac n cheese for a month. He ended up getting scurvy.....Wonder if these frame finishers have scurvy from all the Ramen....

[datas_brother]

Those of you with good painters should count your blessings. The first painter I tried here in Germany was a bike specific painter that also paints for one of the biggest German bike makers. Although he only needed to paint the top tube and cover the whole thing with clear it took 3 months and cost almost EUR 300.- The painter said he had to stip and redo it 3 or 4 times. In the end it was still not the best. The second painter was local and only had to do a clear. I got it back 3 times with runs. I kept it and will sand the runs out and polish it. Now I've decided to do it myself. I would be happy to pay 300 EUR for a good paint job if it was both good and timely.