Turntables

[Chris Chesebro]

Thanks for this...the preamp seems like the way to go

Appreciate the help gents.

[King Of Dirk]

Gents,

Color me completely unsurprised that there's a ton of knowledge on the Salon about all things important, to include turntables. I apologize for necro-ing the thread, but I have a similar request for help and guidance:

I'm playing around with the idea of a VPI Scout or Classic, and then I'm told I need to consider Clearaudio's Concept in that range. I'd like to keep the table under $3K, but I must say that's just an arbitrary limit. Is it true that the VPIs tend to be a little "boomier" or heavy on the bass, whereas the Clearaudios are a little brighter in the midrange? I'd have thought that was more an issue of tonearm/cartridge setup and alignment, but I'll admit I've bumped into my limit of education on such things.

Part of me wants a Scout II to split the VPI difference, and I like that they're US-made. But if the Clearaudio is the better table in that price range, please tell me all about it.

Rock on.

[davids]

I'm out of touch with the current market. All I can say is that my VPI HW-19 Jr. has made beautiful music for about 20 years now.

[spopepro]

I was just about where you are a few months ago. I had (have... anyone want it?) a rega P3 and was looking into upgrading it. When doing everything (subplatter, motor, controller, arm stuff, etc...) it was going to be around 2k and still be a P3 at heart. Not that the P3 is bad! It's very, very good, but engineered to a price point and throwing tons of upgrades at it might not be the best plan.

I also looked at the VPI and Clearaudio offerings. I wasn't stoked with the cheaper Clearaudio stuff when I listened to it. Philosophically, I don't get using a DC motor over an AC with this design. The ovation is where things really sounded noticeably better than my P3, and the optical speed control and panzerholz plinth are design choices I get and think make a difference. Alas, it's twice the price of the budget.

I have a hard time understanding VPI sometimes. It's like they have some knowledge of the engineering, but then casually ignore it when marketing requires so. Like with anti-skate. They will mostly say "people set this up wrong" and "most of the time in listening tests people preferred not having it" and then they include and promote a hanging weight system. And then say probably don't use it. Then there was the "motors should be separate from the plinth" and then they made the classic "putting it on the plinth works better here". No doubt, their tables are very, very nice. I just worry about how they go about things. Getting a listening test of all the options is also challenging, since few seem to stock more than one type, if any at all.

I nearly got a Project Xtension 10. It's probably the best bang for the buck in that price range with a really good arm, an included speed control, and an overall solid design on paper. I couldn't get one to listen to because they couldn't keep them in stock. Which also meant that when I was just about ready to pull the trigger there wasn't one to buy.

I also nearly purchased an old Garrard 301 to refurbish and set in a kitty-litter resin plinth. Then I came to my senses and realized that I'd really like to listen to music instead of fixing the TT for the next forever years. No joke, from a design perspective this is probably the best one could do if you can deal with it being ugly and in constant need of TLC.

What I ended up getting was this:


Sorry for the phone photo. It's an Anvil, and it was made by Bruce in Detroit. It's a grey metal cast plinth and a non-magnetic nickle alloy cast platter. It's measures incredibly stable, and is low resonance enough to punch way above it's weight class (er, price class). I've really, really enjoyed it so far, and if you enjoy the vsalon "know your builder" ethos, then you can't do better. You can probably get right around your stated budget as well with a Jelco arm and Denon 103 cart. With that setup you would likely have to spend much, much more to do better. Just don't ask for this paint job... apparently his painter fired him over it. Seriously though, you should give him a phone call.

[dogrange]

Gents,

Color me completely unsurprised that there's a ton of knowledge on the Salon about all things important, to include turntables. I apologize for necro-ing the thread, but I have a similar request for help and guidance:

I'm playing around with the idea of a VPI Scout or Classic, and then I'm told I need to consider Clearaudio's Concept in that range. I'd like to keep the table under $3K, but I must say that's just an arbitrary limit. Is it true that the VPIs tend to be a little "boomier" or heavy on the bass, whereas the Clearaudios are a little brighter in the midrange? I'd have thought that was more an issue of tonearm/cartridge setup and alignment, but I'll admit I've bumped into my limit of education on such things.

Part of me wants a Scout II to split the VPI difference, and I like that they're US-made. But if the Clearaudio is the better table in that price range, please tell me all about it.

Rock on.

Wish I could contribute, but I've been rocking the same Rega P25 since 1999. I'll upgrade at some point, so if you get around to a listening comparison between these, please do share!

[dogrange]

I was just about where you are a few months ago. I had (have... anyone want it?) a rega P3 and was looking into upgrading it. When doing everything (subplatter, motor, controller, arm stuff, etc...) it was going to be around 2k and still be a P3 at heart. Not that the P3 is bad! It's very, very good, but engineered to a price point and throwing tons of upgrades at it might not be the best plan.

I also looked at the VPI and Clearaudio offerings. I wasn't stoked with the cheaper Clearaudio stuff when I listened to it. Philosophically, I don't get using a DC motor over an AC with this design. The ovation is where things really sounded noticeably better than my P3, and the optical speed control and panzerholz plinth are design choices I get and think make a difference. Alas, it's twice the price of the budget.

I have a hard time understanding VPI sometimes. It's like they have some knowledge of the engineering, but then casually ignore it when marketing requires so. Like with anti-skate. They will mostly say "people set this up wrong" and "most of the time in listening tests people preferred not having it" and then they include and promote a hanging weight system. And then say probably don't use it. Then there was the "motors should be separate from the plinth" and then they made the classic "putting it on the plinth works better here". No doubt, their tables are very, very nice. I just worry about how they go about things. Getting a listening test of all the options is also challenging, since few seem to stock more than one type, if any at all.

I nearly got a Project Xtension 10. It's probably the best bang for the buck in that price range with a really good arm, an included speed control, and an overall solid design on paper. I couldn't get one to listen to because they couldn't keep them in stock. Which also meant that when I was just about ready to pull the trigger there wasn't one to buy.

I also nearly purchased an old Garrard 301 to refurbish and set in a kitty-litter resin plinth. Then I came to my senses and realized that I'd really like to listen to music instead of fixing the TT for the next forever years. No joke, from a design perspective this is probably the best one could do if you can deal with it being ugly and in constant need of TLC.

What I ended up getting was this:

Sorry for the phone photo. It's an Anvil, and it was made by Bruce in Detroit. It's a grey metal cast plinth and a non-magnetic nickle alloy cast platter. It's measures incredibly stable, and is low resonance enough to punch way above it's weight class (er, price class). I've really, really enjoyed it so far, and if you enjoy the vsalon "know your builder" ethos, then you can't do better. You can probably get right around your stated budget as well with a Jelco arm and Denon 103 cart. With that setup you would likely have to spend much, much more to do better. Just don't ask for this paint job... apparently his painter fired him over it. Seriously though, you should give him a phone call.

Hey, thanks for sharing, this looks great and worthy of consideration when upgrade time comes! On the subject of old turntable, I used to have an empire 298 that looked cool, but was a real pain to keep rolling. sold it.

[Cookietruck]

Hey, thanks for sharing, this looks great and worthy of consideration when upgrade time comes! On the subject of old turntable, I used to have an empire 298 that looked cool, but was a real pain to keep rolling. sold it.

i have an empire 208 that i put an 80's tonearm (basically a jelco) on
was thinking hmm, need to replace that tonearm maybe, seems to sound off...then i bought a used hagermann cornetII phone stage and **** the whole system came alive.
sold the fancy (decware) tube amp and preamp i had and run a cheap ass craigslist marantz 2220B now, i like the extra power...wait...20watts is extra power??? yeah i built some bigass speakers that get really loud coz that decware amp was only about 4watts clean probably...

my phono cartridge is nice though, a sound-smith retipped grado sonata into a hagerman stepup device i built.

if it were me, i'd probably go mid level table with badass cartridge and phono preamp...

[Mark Kelly]

I also nearly purchased an old Garrard 301 to refurbish and set in a kitty-litter resin plinth. Then I came to my senses and realized that I'd really like to listen to music instead of fixing the TT for the next forever years. No joke, from a design perspective this is probably the best one could do if you can deal with it being ugly and in constant need of TLC.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

My 301 has been running faithfully for twenty years and required bugger all TLC in that time*. It originally cost me $60 plus a swap of a case of wine (which came out of my wine allowance from work so the cost to me was nil).

Yes I refurbished it and built it a new plinth when I got it but these things are so robust that that's a fairly easy job.

I have a hard time understanding VPI sometimes. It's like they have some knowledge of the engineering, but then casually ignore it when marketing requires so.

Agreed, but fortunately HW has retired now, maybe things will improve. They'll need to find an upgrade to the Hurst motors for that to happen.

Philosophically, I don't get using a DC motor over an AC with this design.

The problems with DC motors mostly stem from the very poor drive circuits used in commercial TTs, but it's a trivial matter to improve on them enormously.

* of course, being me, although it wasn't required I've rebuilt it with at least ten different motor / drive combinations in that time but this is bells and whistles stuff, the stock configuration is a good example of the 80/20 rule.

[spopepro]

... It originally cost me $60 plus a swap of a case of wine (which came out of my wine allowance from work so the cost to me was nil).

Oh, if there was a 301 in good working order for this price (even inflation adjusted) I would have been all over that without a second thought. The going rate even for run down and busted versions is outrageous... so much so that lencos are now shooting up in price.

The problems with DC motors mostly stem from the very poor drive circuits used in commercial TTs, but it's a trivial matter to improve on them enormously.

Yep, and the cheap clearaudios, from what I can see, are very, very poor. The Ovation seems to have a nice one, but now it's a $6k table and that's kind of weak.

* of course, being me, although it wasn't required I've rebuilt it with at least ten different motor / drive combinations in that time but this is bells and whistles stuff, the stock configuration is a good example of the 80/20 rule.

Of Course. :) For whatever reason, I'm more than happy to mess around with the everything else, but I always seem to get stressed out over building/modifying/fixing TTs. Eventually I had to come to terms with the fact that my stress about messing with it was keeping me from enjoying it as a hobby.

[davids]

I don't understand this current infatuation with rebuilding/upgrading these ancient TTs. When I was seriously into this stuff in the late 80s and 90s, the only antique TTs anyone cared for were the original ARs. It was all about Linn, VPI, SOTA, etc.

Who decided that 50 year old Garrards were worth preserving? And why?

[Bobonli]

I hate this thread. I sooooo want a TT. Nothing exotic, just a quality one, with an amp and nice speakers but there's too much kiddie crap all over the house and I'm afraid they'd trash it. I miss the quality and I'd really like my kids to understand there are other ways to hear music than through a phone.

[FSonicSmith]

I have a restored Thorens TD124 and a VPI Prime. The Thorens was my dad's purchased in 1959 and sitting around idle for twenty years. It had an SME 3009 Type 2 arm also purchased by Dad at the same time. Thorens 9T.JPG So here is my take on the appeal of vintage tables and the drawbacks. Some vintage tables were built with a level of engineering and purpose-built-sophistication that nothing current can quite match their reliability and quality of sound. The TD124 and Garard 301 are at that level. The Thorens TD124 features a combination of belt and idler wheel drive that gives it a very punchy, dynamic sound. The drawback is that most vintage tables include tonearms that were designed for the moving magnet high compliance cartridges of the day, the Shure V15 Type III being the top of the heap at the time. Cartridge technology advanced markedly while vinyl popularity waned. Top quality cartridges now are MC and low compliance which require medium to high mass tonearms. So I did my best to configure and enjoy the sound of the Thorens TD124 with the original SME arm and just couldn't get into it. I then swapped out the SME with a modern VPI 9T arm and fitted it with a Benz Glider and things have been, well, groovy.
As to the comments about VPI, I agree. There is a fine line between constantly evolving and upgrading and plain cobbling together of concept A from this bin and concept B from that, and VPI has historically done a combination of both. It get's tiring and is not fair to the consumer. That said, I really like the Prime. I traded in a first generation VPI Classic for the Prime. I could never get the Classic to sound right no matter what I did. The Prime has sounded great with the very same cartridge out of the gate (I used Mint LP protractors for alignment). The sound of my two tables, both fitted with Benz Glider S LO cartridges are equally enjoyable although ever so slightly different.

[rec head]

I'm curious. How often do you guys use your turntables? There is a romantic appeal to a decent TT but I just don't know if I'd use it much after I listened to the handful of records that I have left. I also don't know that I would start buying new records as often as CDs.

This leads to another question: how much of your music is doubled up? Do you own the vinyl and the CD or other format?

[FSonicSmith]

Great question and one that is all too often not brought up on various audio forums. I have spent almost as much money on audio equipment as bikes (and that's a fair bit) and I spend far more time on and get far more satisfaction out of riding my bike. I have all tubed equipment and so firing up the stereo involves switching everything on in set order and letting the equipment stabilize for twenty to thirty minutes before I sit down to listen. Often enough, I get lazy and decide to do something else. And then there is the ritual of cleaning the record, zerostating it, etc. (and everyone has a different pre-play ritual, variations on a theme). So, the quick answer is that I love music and play records almost every weekend and usually during one weeknight. I do have one piece of solid state gear that I just picked up a couple months back, an Aurender N100H which is combination music server and streamer. It feeds bits to a tubed DAC though, an Abbingdon Music Research DP-777. It sounds great and with the ease of sitting in my listening chair and pecking away at my iPad I can select different songs into a playlist easily. I burned CDs wirelessly to an NAS and everything gets transmitted via Wifi in lossless format from the NAS to the Aurender which is pretty cool and I can also store up to 2 TB of music data internally in the Aurender. But that said, I still prefer vinyl. Final word-you are pretty damned full of insight to wonder how much you will use it-most people with busy lifestyles get enamored by the equipment and then use it less and less over time. The most active people on vinyl enthusiast boards seem to be retirees.

[davids]

I'm curious. How often do you guys use your turntables? There is a romantic appeal to a decent TT but I just don't know if I'd use it much after I listened to the handful of records that I have left. I also don't know that I would start buying new records as often as CDs.

This leads to another question: how much of your music is doubled up? Do you own the vinyl and the CD or other format?

Not a lot. I'll go in streaks, one record leading to another and another.

It honestly depends on what pops into my head - I'll pull a CD or vinyl as needed.

Both my digital and analogue systems provide pretty adequate fidelity. I listen to music, not formats.

[Cookietruck]

I'm curious. How often do you guys use your turntables? There is a romantic appeal to a decent TT but I just don't know if I'd use it much after I listened to the handful of records that I have left. I also don't know that I would start buying new records as often as CDs.

This leads to another question: how much of your music is doubled up? Do you own the vinyl and the CD or other format?

few days go by that i don't listen to music at the house
it's been a long while since i've spun a cd at home, occasionally i'll play a cassette coz there are things i want to hear that are only released on tape these days. seriously.
so my turntable usually gets at least an hour of play a day, avg is more like a few hours...
cooking at home...record is spinning, internetting...usually a record is spinning.
we don't have a tv...

i don't do lots of critical listening anymore because i'd rather enjoy the music than the stereo system.

but, my system still sounds good. my buddy brought over a test pressing of recording he is releasing for joe mcphee. wanted to hear it on a nice stereo.

[dogrange]

I'm curious. How often do you guys use your turntables? There is a romantic appeal to a decent TT but I just don't know if I'd use it much after I listened to the handful of records that I have left. I also don't know that I would start buying new records as often as CDs.

This leads to another question: how much of your music is doubled up? Do you own the vinyl and the CD or other format?

Like David, it goes in streaks for me, sometimes many hours per week, some weeks hardly at all. My system is solid stat, so no warm up etc., it's ready to go any time. Most of my music is on vinyl (3/4) with maybe 1/4 on CD. Not a lot of overlap for me, so vinyl is the main thing. I've got about 3000 vinyl recs and about 1000 CDs, but th vinyl continues to get added to and the CDs not so much. I have random downloaded stuff, but my computers are not very reliable so I keep losing digital libraries, but I don't care enough to try to retreive them.

[spopepro]

I'm curious. How often do you guys use your turntables? There is a romantic appeal to a decent TT but I just don't know if I'd use it much after I listened to the handful of records that I have left. I also don't know that I would start buying new records as often as CDs.

This leads to another question: how much of your music is doubled up? Do you own the vinyl and the CD or other format?

The TT is now our primary source. It's pretty much vinyl only if we are listening, and pandora if it's just on in the background.

Since most all new vinyl comes with a digital code, I guess most of our collection is doubled. But the digital files are primarily just for putting on the phone and listening on the go. The only albums I've had on CD that I have re-purchased on vinyl are either originally recorded on analogue equipment and I'm able to get a pressing that was all AAA (this is not trivial), or have been part of a set or collection that I picked up. Recently pre-ordered the Neko Case box set, which has a couple of duplicates for us, and it happens to check both criteria.

[Mark Kelly]

Who decided that 50 year old Garrards were worth preserving?

The Japanese "Ultra Fi" movement around thirty years ago.

And why?

Because they listened to them.

[Mark Kelly]

Saskia.jpg

BTW David if the age of these things is your barrier, there's a killer idler TT being made in the USA right now; the Saskia. Note the price.

Declaration of interest: Win Tinnon, the maker of the Saskia, is a friend of mine. I designed and built the motor controllers for the Mk1.