Turntables

[rec head]

Thanks, I feel like if I was to start using a TT I would end up buying a bunch of records that I already have on CD. I'll probably end up with a TT some day but for the time being CDs ripped to the computer is good.

[twowheels]

My house is on the market and my systems are in storage. I've been listening to music entirely digitally--except for a few concerts-- and I sometimes feel like I'm in a sensory deprivation gulag. My primary table is a TW acustic raven with graham phantom arm with benz ebony lp-s MR into a tuned steelhead into joule and a lot of other good stuff. The nuance, detail and emotional connection possible with the music on a good record is something to experience and not really possible with a CD.

[Bob Ross]

The nuance, detail and emotional connection possible with the music on a good record is something to experience and not really possible with a CD.

At the risk of turning this into an analog versus digital debate, I strongly disagree.

However, I will concede that there seem to be a lot more poorly mastered CDs than LPs on the market, so it's easier to find CDs that do lack nuance & detail.

Also, I think some of the "emotional connection" has to do with the (not necessarily intentional) fetishization of LP jackets and liner notes; I know it's been difficult for me to build the same bond with newer music that I never owned on vinyl and whose jewel case is littered with microscopically illegible text that I can't be bothered to read.


I'll also say that I have yet to hear a streaming service that offers the nuance, detail and emotional connection possible with the music on a good record or CD.

[spopepro]

I think you're 99% right, Bob. A well recorded, mastered, and manufactured album will always sound good regardless of CD or Vinyl, and there is no way compressed audio will ever come close.

The one thing I have noticed where I would disagree: I've never seen someone stop what they are doing and come sit and listen when a CD was playing. I've observed this multiple times with vinyl. Now, the album needs to be top-notch, but it's happened in my house with the beetles mono records, the RCA living stereo Sibelius violin concerto, and Chick Corea's My Spanish Heart, where people heard something that compelled them to sit and listen.

[twowheels]

There are some really good sounding CDs but I don't think they can as of yet compare with a killer record. I've heard some high res digital but not in my system. They still seem to have some quirks.

[Bobonli]

A couple of questions from someone who hasn't bought audio components in a couple of decades. My goal, like TT, is to put together an entry level turntable rig. No receiver or CD player needed. It has to be compact, as I have a small house mostly occupied by kids' toys right now. My last set of components- a full Onkyo tower with 5 foot tall speakers--was banished many many years ago because it took up too much space and was deemed "ugly". All I want to do is spin a record a couple of times a week and decompress. Secondary gain is exposing the family to alternative listening methods. Quality is important but I'm not interested in another obsession or something that takes up an entire wall.

That Rega looks like a deal. And I can be happy with a smaller set of speakers. So that's sort of my starting point.

1) Integrated amp or separate phono pre-amp etc? I've done some reading and have confused myself as to which is "better" versus necessary at my entry level.
2) What's the smallest space I can get this into? My CDO (chief domestic officer) will ned to ratify any treaty… I mean placement of gear in the home. Part of me wonders if I should skip the speakers in the interests of space and just go headphones, but that doesn't really allow others to listen along.

If anyone has pictures for #2 that would be super helpful in figuring out where to park this. As would any references to a NYC area shop that is kind to beginners and won't take advantage of ignorance.

Thanks in advance.

[Britishbane]

A couple of questions from someone who hasn't bought audio components in a couple of decades. My goal, like TT, is to put together an entry level turntable rig. No receiver or CD player needed. It has to be compact, as I have a small house mostly occupied by kids' toys right now. My last set of components- a full Onkyo tower with 5 foot tall speakers--was banished many many years ago because it took up too much space and was deemed "ugly". All I want to do is spin a record a couple of times a week and decompress. Secondary gain is exposing the family to alternative listening methods. Quality is important but I'm not interested in another obsession or something that takes up an entire wall.

That Rega looks like a deal. And I can be happy with a smaller set of speakers. So that's sort of my starting point.

1) Integrated amp or separate phono pre-amp etc? I've done some reading and have confused myself as to which is "better" versus necessary at my entry level.
2) What's the smallest space I can get this into? My CDO (chief domestic officer) will ned to ratify any treaty… I mean placement of gear in the home. Part of me wonders if I should skip the speakers in the interests of space and just go headphones, but that doesn't really allow others to listen along.

If anyone has pictures for #2 that would be super helpful in figuring out where to park this. As would any references to a NYC area shop that is kind to beginners and won't take advantage of ignorance.

Thanks in advance.

Integrated amp with an outboard phono gets my vote. Totem arro speakers for a tight space are supposed to be hard to beat.

[Cookietruck]

i'd get some small monitors and consider a nice sub to place somewhere
make sure the crossover point is low like 80-90 hz or it will sounds bad...

[spopepro]

That Rega looks like a deal. And I can be happy with a smaller set of speakers. So that's sort of my starting point.

1) Integrated amp or separate phono pre-amp etc? I've done some reading and have confused myself as to which is "better" versus necessary at my entry level.
2) What's the smallest space I can get this into? My CDO (chief domestic officer) will ned to ratify any treaty… I mean placement of gear in the home. Part of me wonders if I should skip the speakers in the interests of space and just go headphones, but that doesn't really allow others to listen along.

If anyone has pictures for #2 that would be super helpful in figuring out where to park this. As would any references to a NYC area shop that is kind to beginners and won't take advantage of ignorance.

Thanks in advance.

I'd go integrated for the phono stage. Honestly, the major advantage to a separate stage is being able to match it to your cartridge and setup. The more you spend here, the more picky everything gets and it won't necessarily play well with each other. Also, short of the really cheap stuff, a separate phono stage is about as much as an integrated with a good enough phono stage. The cambridge audio topaz, or a marantz is really, really nice at around $350-$400. I still think there is no better deal on the planet than the pioneer BS-22-LR speakers. They will absolutely shock you with how nice they sound, and they are small, and don't require a ton of power.

The picture of my table above shows more or less my entire setup. It all lives on a 40x26" map chest. And I have huge stuff, and a ton of it. You can make it all fit on a regular shelf. The one issue is having room to open the TT dust cover, since that requires space above and a bit behind. Rega makes a pretty minimalistic shelf that works really well if you have wall space for it. Another consideration is the speakers, since they will need to be on something, and a little bit away from the wall (unless you find bookshelf speakers that are ported to the front, but then that will surely make them bigger, in almost all cases).

[pomole]

Hey this is a very timely thread- i have a pair of Rega RS-1 speakers that i am looking to sell. They are neutral, clean sounding 2-way monitors. i am the origina nonsmoking owner and ran them with my system, an audio analogue puccini integrated amp and rega planar 3 for about 6 years and was stunned by the detail and sound stage they produce. I am selling because they are not really a good match for this system and were replaced by some wharfdale's that i am "Demo-ing."

the regas look like this: http://www.soundacademy.co.uk/wp-con...3/Rega-RS1.jpg

They are in excellent condition and come in original box w/ packing material. I was going to put them on Ebay but would rather sell directly to a vsalon person at a special price. PM me if interested - ill send actual photos, etc.. Im in NJ so shipping should be minimal.

-pom

[Bobonli]

If anyone has pictures for #2 that would be super helpful in figuring out where to park this. As would any references to a NYC area shop that is kind to beginners and won't take advantage of ignorance.

Thanks in advance.

Still looking for pictures and suggestions for a shop. I tried the local brick and mortar shop, which I drive by daily since forever. Stopped by and the place is all lit up, doors locked, boxes and components all over the floors. Unoccupied. I get the feeling it's not really a retail location but a storehouse for home entertainment installation gear. Damn. I really wanted to talk to someone face to face.

On the bright side, I came home and the CDO cleared a swathe of space in the living room that looks just right for a small stand to place a TT !

[Bobonli]

Here's a quote from one of the purveyors mentioned in this thread. My request was to keep it <2000. I have nothing so this is all starting from scratch.

Pangea Audio Mega Large Sorbothane Foot 4 Pack 1.00 $ 49.9500 0 $ 49.95
AudioQuest Sorbothane Self Stick Sheet 6"x6"x0.10" 2.00 $ 24.7500 0 $ 49.50
Analysis Plus Clear Oval Speaker Cable 8' Pair - Bananas to Spades 1.00 $ 119.0000 0 $ 119.00
AudioQuest Black Mamba II Premium Audio Interconnect 1.0 Meter - Pair RCA to RCA 1.00 $ 109.9800 0 $ 109.98
Monitor Audio Bronze Series 2 2 Way Bookshelf Speakers Pair - Walnut 1.00 $ 499.0000 0 $ 499.00
Marantz PM 6005 Integrated Amplifier 1.00 $ 699.0000 0 $ 699.00
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Turntable Gloss Red with Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge 1.00 $ 399.0000 0 $ 399.00
Furman PST 6 Advanced Power Strip 1.00 $ 99.0000 0 $ 99.00
Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable 1.0 Meter 1.00 $ 49.9900 0 $ 49.99

A quick Googling shows that some of the stuff is a bit overpriced but some of it also seems like fluff, like the rubber feet and mat. Is that really necessary?
I know nothing about cables.
Should the speakers be on the same surface as the TT or am I better off putting them on stands? Wall mount is a no-go. From what I've read the speakers vibrating next to the table is not-so-good. I asked the online sales agent this question but I suspect English is not his primary language and he didn't understand the question.

Your thoughts, please.

[spopepro]

Monitor Audio Bronze Series 2 2 Way Bookshelf Speakers Pair - Walnut 1.00 $ 499.0000 0 $ 499.00
Marantz PM 6005 Integrated Amplifier 1.00 $ 699.0000 0 $ 699.00
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Turntable Gloss Red with Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge 1.00 $ 399.0000 0 $ 399.00

This is all good stuff, you can ignore the rest. I don't have first hand experience with those speakers, and the fact that they don't appear to publish frequency response charts worries me, but they seem well constructed and having front ported speakers does give you much more flexibility. Buy monoprice or amazon basics cables. The only bad cable is one with too much capacitance, resistance or is just made badly. Electrons otherwise don't care.

You should find a difference surface for the speakers if you can. At low listening volumes it probably won't make any difference, but higher levels will vibrate the shelf, and therefore the TT.

[rec head]

I'm with spopepro on the cables. Don't get spendy until your gear is $$$$$$$$$$$.

Speakers on stands are probably better.

My friend was looking for some speakers and we listened to Paradigms that were really nice and I think cost less. I'm headed to Saturday Audio now. If they have the Monitor Audios I'll check them out.

[Bobonli]

Thank you both. I looked quickly at other vendors. The power strip, for example, is $40 cheaper at B&H and the cables can be found cheaper too. I figured for the price difference and trimming out the rubber feet etc I could find a little better speaker and/ or put them on small stands. I've never heard of that brand either. If nothing else, now I have a starting point for the TT and amp.

[FSonicSmith]

My house is on the market and my systems are in storage. I've been listening to music entirely digitally--except for a few concerts-- and I sometimes feel like I'm in a sensory deprivation gulag. My primary table is a TW acustic raven with graham phantom arm with benz ebony lp-s MR into a tuned steelhead into joule and a lot of other good stuff. The nuance, detail and emotional connection possible with the music on a good record is something to experience and not really possible with a CD.

Small world, I too have a Steelhead. Bought it brand new three months ago. MC2 input is a little bit hum prone-I have two tables and am using both MC inputs. Other than that, I love it. And I agree. My tables are a VPI Prime with a Benz Glider SL and a restored Thorens TD124 with a VPI 9T arm and another Benz Glider SL. Both carts have been re-tipped by Peter Lederman. They sound better now than they did as supplied by Benz. I believe I have a damned good digital system with an Aurender N100H and an Abbingdon Music Research DP777. The digital can sound damned good nwo that I have optimized USB cabling and added an Uptone Audio Regen but still-give me vinyl when I really want to kick back and get engrossed by the music. Vinyl is every bit as variable as CDs, maybe more, but nothing beats a great sounding record on a well set up table. That said, tables are a pain. You need a lot of good basic tools like a good bubble level and reliable digital VTF gauge. Finding someone to set up your table and demonstrate the basics of set-up is vital.

As to the separate thread about the ~2000 system, go for it. System synergy is everything and it appears some wise person is suggesting a complete package based on experience. Cables DO definitely matter. Everything matters. Isolation matters, in the form of decent power cords, power strips/conditioners, platforms, footers, etc. Most important of all though is optimum speaker placement. It is mind boggling how many people spend a lot of money on equipment and then place their speakers in the room based on convenience and not good trial and error. I have seen countless set-ups where the speakers were placed on either side of the equipment rack or some TV display and back against the wall as if that is where the wife thought things looked best (I know that sounds sexist. Sorry). Speaker placement in a given room is critical. Pick up a copy of Jim Smith's "Get Better Sound" and your $40 or so will be well spent.

[Mark Kelly]

Here's a quote from one of the purveyors mentioned in this thread. My request was to keep it <2000. I have nothing so this is all starting from scratch.
<snip>
Your thoughts, please.

Pangea Audio Mega Large Sorbothane Foot 4 Pack 1.00 $ 49.9500 0 $ 49.95 Waste of money
AudioQuest Sorbothane Self Stick Sheet 6"x6"x0.10" 2.00 $ 24.7500 0 $ 49.50 Ditto
Analysis Plus Clear Oval Speaker Cable 8' Pair - Bananas to Spades 1.00 $ 119.0000 0 $ 119.00 Ditto
AudioQuest Black Mamba II Premium Audio Interconnect 1.0 Meter - Pair RCA to RCA 1.00 $ 109.9800 0 $ 109.98 Ditto
Monitor Audio Bronze Series 2 2 Way Bookshelf Speakers Pair - Walnut 1.00 $ 499.0000 0 $ 499.00
Marantz PM 6005 Integrated Amplifier 1.00 $ 699.0000 0 $ 699.00
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon DC Turntable Gloss Red with Ortofon 2M Red Cartridge 1.00 $ 399.0000 0 $ 399.00
Furman PST 6 Advanced Power Strip 1.00 $ 99.0000 0 $ 99.00 Another waste of money
Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII Signature Power Cable 1.0 Meter 1.00 $ 49.9900 0 $ 49.99 And again.

I just saved you almost 25% of your budget.

A quick Googling shows that some of the stuff is a bit overpriced but some of it also seems like fluff, like the rubber feet and mat. Is that really necessary?
I know nothing about cables.

There's nothing to know about cables except that copper conducts electricity. Everything else is fluff.

All the footers etc are overpriced rubbish, based on the garbage concept of a mechanical diode.

There's an incredible amount of bullshit in the audio world, some of it so transparent it's actually funny. Look up "Machina Dynamica": I think they are actually an experiment by a university Psychology department testing the limits of human gullibility.

[Bobonli]

There's an incredible amount of bullshit in the audio world, some of it so transparent it's actually funny. Look up "Machina Dynamica": I think they are actually an experiment by a university Psychology department testing the limits of human gullibility.

That's very funny, Mark.

I get it that there are accessories to improve sound quality and cables might be one of them along with the rubber butt-plug thing in the quote. But I think at my level, starting with a good table, nice amp and nice-enough speakers is sufficient. If I were connecting really expensive gear in a dedicated listening room and planned to expand to many components, then I could see spending $300 on cables. But I'm never gonna do that unless I hit the lottery and buy an entirely new home. In reality, I'm gonna be that guy with the speakers sitting right next to the table holding the turntable and amp without regard to acoustics because the record player is not the center of the universe and I'm not going to re-wire the home. I'll be lucky to get the speakers 6feet apart from one another!

[FSonicSmith]

There's nothing to know about cables except that copper conducts electricity. Everything else is fluff.

Congratulations. You managed to accurately espouse the view of say, 15% of those who own stereos and listen to music. You are entitled to your viewpoint and it matters not a bit to me that you possess it. Other people in your camp insist upon ABX testing as the only legitimate means of evaluating differences among similar components, insist that bits are bits and that all CD players should therefor sound the same, insist that all non-defective solid state amplifiers sound the same, and insist that with the inherent maladies of wow, flutter, rumble, tracking error, warps, tics and pops, vinyl is antiquated and significantly compromised and an utter waste of time. In my humble experience, I have never encountered a female listener adopt this world-view. It is always grumpy middle aged men, almost always with some engineering background (but never Ph.D. level), and always with rather mid-fi systems. I have an analogy for you. Maybe you go all of your life thinking you hate red wine. Then one day someone serves up that rare amazing Burgundy that sends you into a swoon and you say, "hey, maybe there is something good about red wine after all" and you start seriously experimenting with similar wines and you find out that there is a new world of great wine out there that all along you thought did not exist. The only difference between the two worlds of stereo gear and fine wine is that the former seems to avail itself completely to objective measurement and the latter does not. And the analogy bears out the cure; one day maybe you will have the fortune of truly listening to a friend's well-assembled system without pre-judgment and that same light bulb will go off in your head. Good luck to you and best wishes. In the meantime, enjoy your system as is, lampcord and all. It's all about the music, not how you get there.

[Cookietruck]

That's very funny, Mark.

I get it that there are accessories to improve sound quality and cables might be one of them along with the rubber butt-plug thing in the quote. But I think at my level, starting with a good table, nice amp and nice-enough speakers is sufficient. If I were connecting really expensive gear in a dedicated listening room and planned to expand to many components, then I could see spending $300 on cables. But I'm never gonna do that unless I hit the lottery and buy an entirely new home. In reality, I'm gonna be that guy with the speakers sitting right next to the table holding the turntable and amp without regard to acoustics because the record player is not the center of the universe and I'm not going to re-wire the home. I'll be lucky to get the speakers 6feet apart from one another!

just setup your system best you can and don't worry so much about it. have fun listening.

i gotta agree with Mark Kelly on the cable thing.
different amps...they're different circuits.
i also noticed a dramatic difference in upper end response when i went from some cheapy metal cone feet that i had my turntable mounted on to the original hard rubber feet...i put the metal things back under it.
i also have that ruby cantilever with contact line diamond from Peter Ledermann so it's not like i just run whatever equipemnt i can find.

but i've never heard any difference from swapping cables around...thank god...