Trangender & Sports

[dgaddis]

I figure vSalon is likely the only place this discussion can happen in a respectful way...prove me right. Let me also state that this is not a topic I know much about, so if I mix up any terminology or anything it's genuine ignorance and I don't mean any offense.

Transgender people and sports - how do you think that should work out?

A female fried of mine has recently started road racing, she's only done two or three races so far, and she's raced against two different men transitioning to become women. My gut reaction says they shouldn't be allowed to compete against women. Generally speaking men are stronger than women, which is why the sexes are split in the first place (...right?). Cycling is a sport where strength matters, it's not like we're talking about billiards or bowling (which shouldn't be split IMO).

What about women transitioning to become men? They're taking testosterone which is a performance enhancing drug (....right?), so should they be allowed to compete against either sex?

If I think too hard about any of this I end up with the conclusion that it's all amatuer sports, a game essentially, that doesn't really matter, so who cares. But I know a LOT of people really do care and it means a lot to them. If I were strong enough to podium (against either sex...) maybe I'd care too haha.

[nate2351]

I think we should be proud that somewhere down the line a transgender child felt safe enough to become an athlete instead of more unfortunate routes.

Our sport should not turn away athletes who just want a chance. I think this is an immensely complicated issue and we need to remember that at the end of the day being able to purse sport is a very privileged thing to be able to do compared to the majority of the world. I've competed with transgender athletes before and I can tell you it was still just bike racing.

[e-RICHIE]

Is this about the female high school wrestler in Texas who was on NPR yesterday?

Regardless, the amount of testosterone they are taking isn't a dose large enough to matter, or even test positive for.

[dashDustin]

Is this about the female high school wrestler in Texas who was on NPR yesterday?

Regardless, the amount of testosterone they are taking isn't a dose large enough to matter, or even test positive for.

i'm late to this party, and don't really feel like reading the 5 pages here during my lunch break, but this.....the UIL really screwed this one up, in my opinion. and for the coming years, the wrestler's State Championship will be dirtied. Not because he's transitioning, but because the UIL refused his request to wrestle against the males. hopefully the UIL will reexamine this and change for 2017-2018.

[christian]

People should be allowed to compete based on what gender they identify as.

[Dave]

I would have zero problem with men transitioning to being a woman or vice versa participating in sports with the exception of fighting. There is/was a transgender MMA fighter (man to woman) and that bothers me, but it could also be the mental block of how much changes when one goes through the change. Yeah, I comprehend that when you change so much alters in physiology, but something about a man becoming a woman and then fighting other women just irks me. I have zero problems with MMA for either gender, I just don't care much for that aspect.

With regards to cycling I often think of Molly Cameron and the struggles she has had to go through. I think or should I say hope that my willingness to accept would be with out limitations, but I admit I might have to unlearn some prejudice first. Being an academic my world is so often in the bubble of right and wrong and regardless of the nature versus nurture arguments I don't see anything wrong with it. The difficulty of going through that change both physically and emotionally earns my respect as well as compassion. I don't imagine a person making the change is doing so to win at sports and if it is and they admit to it then well, outlook on life is different then mine so who am I to stand in judgment.

[Sizzler]

I don't think this issue is as simple as we would like it to be.

Paving the way for transgender cyclists: The story of Jillian Bearden: https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/pavi...llian-bearden/

[EightySixer]

I have a friend who is transitioning female to male and races against females. I never paid it much mind though I hadn't ever thought about testosterone therapy and any advantages it may produce. I am not familiar with any kind of enhancement supplements like EPO, HGH or Anabolic etc. I would be interested to see replies from people who do know the performance effects.

I have mixed emotions about naturally born men racing against women. Amateur or not, that is besides the point as far as I am concerned. I have many friends whom have dedicated their finance, free time, otherwise social life and basically the whole picket fence American Dream type life to peruse their personal athletic dreams, which for them is racing.

Take the Boston Qualifying times as an example; (35-39) is 3:10:00 for men and 3:40:00 for women. That is a drastic difference, and yet no 3:09:00 marathoner is winning a darn thing, but it is an enormous achievement for many of those that do it. A lifetime achievement even.

Very tricky topic indeed.

[sk_tle]

Sport != Racing

I welcome anyone to do sport. I think in "recreative" competitions (think cat III to cat V) genders should be mixed as the physiological differences don't show that much compared to other parameters (free time, DNA lottery, work, family duties, etc). At elite level however I think that men, women and transgender people should compete in different categories. It may be sad for them but it's a in the same vein as Oscar Pistorius bionic legs.

[dgaddis]

Sport != Racing

Good point, thread title should be 'competition', not sport.

[theflashunc]

Its pretty simple for my mind, compete with the gender you identify as. If someone's transitioning, race however they want. That's kind of a tough thing to hide if you're doing it for less than genuine reasons.

[andrew flowers]

There are subsets of hyper androgynous women who have far higher levels of useable (the key here) testosterone than any transitioning persons. Although very rare, there are a few examples in elite middle distance runners who crush their competition.

This aside is intended to show the issue of transgender athletes is a non issue, and making it one makes an already perilous transition even harder. Sport is an escape from real life for most people, keep it that way.

[Sizzler]

Here's a quote from that article I just linked to, again not so simple:

“I’m sure [Bearden] had a rough go at it. It’s very difficult to be transgender. But [when it comes to racing] it’s problematic to me that she [transitioned] only a couple years ago, and has lived 30 years as a man. Regardless of testosterone levels, she’s got muscle memory and a lung capacity that I could never build up. She was a Cat 1 as a male. I could never match a pro man. How fair is that to her female competitors?”

[Paul Jacobs]

Fell running (hill running or mountain running) has been my main sport for the last 10 years ago. The English female fell running champion for three years was a transgender athlete. It did not turn out well. Lauren Jeska admits attempted murder of former rugby player Ralph Knibbs | Daily Mail Online

[false_aesthetic]

A few questions:

Is there data out there that supports an assertion that trans women are dominant at high levels (pro) of competition?
Are cisgender female athletes injured at a higher rate when they compete agains trans athletes?

[zachateseverything]

Here's a quote from that article I just linked to, again not so simple:

“I’m sure [Bearden] had a rough go at it. It’s very difficult to be transgender. But [when it comes to racing] it’s problematic to me that she [transitioned] only a couple years ago, and has lived 30 years as a man. Regardless of testosterone levels, she’s got muscle memory and a lung capacity that I could never build up. She was a Cat 1 as a male. I could never match a pro man. How fair is that to her female competitors?”

after a year of hormone replacement therapy they lose most of the advantages given to them from being born male.

Here's the NCAA guide on the subject.

NCAA Publications - NCAA Inclusion of Transgender Student-Athletes

[Matthew Strongin]

Do you lose muscle capacity w/ that hormone treatment?

It is my understanding that, yes, hormone replacement therapy in male to female transitions will decrease muscle mass and strength along with many other changes that you would expect when transitioning to be a woman.

[Dallas Tex]

Certainly not with that attitude. Glad you recognized you're in the wrong. Bye.

Isn’t it weirder that you want climbers and sprinters to racing each other because of their genitals?

You may not understand this, but your comments are offered in such a way that it discourages discussion.

This topic has valid viewpoints on both sides. If you truly have a confidence in your opinions, you should encourage other points of view to engage in the discussion. That’s how one develops a balanced perspective.

It’s disappointing to see so many folks these days avoid differing opinions with a religious zeal and fervor.

[dgaddis]

Chasea - First off, Daltex is 100% right, when you come off aggressive and insulting everyone it discourages discussion. Secondly, if men and women aren't different, then eff it, lets get rid of Mens Racing, and Womens Racing, and lets just have Racing. That way women would have equal opportunity to make as much money as the men, get the same exposure, etc.

Of course not all men are the same, and not all women are the same - no one is saying that. There's plenty of women who are bigger and stronger than me and many other men. I've been 'chicked' many, many, many times on rides and races. But generally speaking, the idea that there's no difference between men and women is just nonsense.

All that said, after thinking about it, my position is :: Let them race. Sure, it's probably not "fair", but life isn't fair. None of us are created equal. And ultimately it's just a game, let them play. I agree that no one is getting their dick cut off so they can win bike races.

[bcroslin]

I don't think this issue is as simple as we would like it to be.

Paving the way for transgender cyclists: The story of Jillian Bearden: Paving the way for transgender cyclists: The story of Jillian Bearden | CyclingTips

Jillian’s story is EXACTLY the story I’ve been looking for so that I could wrap my head around what it means to compete as a transgender woman. I’ve never had an issue with how anyone would like to express or associate their gender but for the sake of the discussion I’ll admit that as a CIS male I’ve been confused as to how a transgender woman competing with other women would work. The fact that the IOC and other governing bodies are thoughtfully working these questions out gives me hope for how humanity will move forward with acceptance of transgendered people world wide.

(And to be totally honest, this honest and respectful discussion is why I’m now here and no longer “across-the-hall”)