Michael Brown Shooting

[Jonathan]

“I wore this frock coat to Washington before The War. We wore them because we belonged to the five civilized tribes. We dressed ourselves up like Abraham Lincoln.

You know, we got to see the Secretary of the Interior. And he said, “Boy, you boys sure look civilized.”

He congratulated us and he gave us medals for looking so civilized.

We told him about how our land had been stolen and how our people were dying. When we finished he shook our hands and said, “endeavor to persevere!”

They stood us in a line: John Jumper, Chili McIntosh, Buffalo Hump, Jim Buckmark, and me — I am Lone Watie. They took our pictures. And the newspapers said, “Indians vow to endeavor to persevere.”

We thought about it for a long time. “Endeavor to persevere.” And when we had thought about it long enough, we declared war on the Union.”

[Will Neide]

From the misleading Post headline (he wasn't arrested), to the cop's "trespassing in a McDonald's", to the journalist's very slow gathering of materiel, to the whining about the Coke machine (unnecessary, but hardly a beheading), the entire thing is a disaster. Katherine Graham would be ashamed of the piece.

Was the McDo deemed off limits and posted as such? Why didn't the reporter ask as or was he too busy self-documenting as a victim? I suppose the latter means more click revenue, but I'm repeating myself.

I read on the interwebs somewhere (must be true) that the McDonalds had called the police about loiterers taking up lots of space, but not actually buying anything. These reporters were in there to charge up their devices. Can't say I agree with having SWAT remove them, but I can' say I agree with much of anything going on in Ferguson at the moment. A cycle of negative reinforcement. A race to the bottom.

There is so much commentary that is tangential to this situation that it's nearly impossible to discuss it all in one sitting. And I mean, sit back, dig deep, and actually discuss. It will never happen. White folks can't discuss it or we're racist. "Privileged" people can't discuss it, because ya know, they're priviliged. Black folks can't discuss it because "it's cultural." Meanwhile, people do stupid crap, people respond stupidly, people get hurt. Faux outrage ensues.

[Corso]

I think I've managed to "like" every post in this thread where someone corrects Corso. If I missed anything, feel free to correct me.

Just because someone “corrects” me, doesn’t make it “correct”. I gladly defer to a good point, but I’m not seeing much of that.

David assumes mr Arms up was part of an organized protest. You get that from that still? Did they have a permit? Watch the news. This photo is part of a larger picture, not some single guy walking down the street, then suddenly riot cops parachute in like a cartoon. C’mon folks, even if you are part of an organized protest, approaching the police when they tell you not to is seen as a threat.

MathewJ; America is the best free country in the world, but that does not give you the RIGHT to say anything you want anywhere you want. If you think that’s the way real life is, you have a lot of growing up to do.

All I’m saying is this: The Police tell you to do something, you do it. Especially in a potentially violent situation, which IT STILL IS. Everyone wants to get on TV and youtube, and causing trouble with the police is the fastest way to get there.

A police copter was shot at. A cop was injured by a brick. Stores looted, buildings burned. Why are all of you ignoring this? THIS is why the police reacted. PERIOD.
If the Police didn’t come in heavy, are you sure the violence would not have gotten worse? Can they afford to take that gamble?

The Police are in a no-win situation. Let the town burn, and the city council, property owners, bystanders injured by the “protesters, insurance companies, fire department, etc etc will complain the Police didn’t do enough to control the situation.

Come in with force that the TRAINED POLICE feel is needed by law enforcement professionals, and now it’s a Racist Police state.

YOUR street is burning: You want the police to come in hard, or sit by and wait till “everyone hugs it out?"

The McD think is stupid on all fronts.

I’m not saying the police are 100% right, but I’m so tired of this anti-police wave of bullshit when they are reacting to their circumstances, i.e., doing their job.

[jitahs]

I read on the interwebs somewhere (must be true) that the McDonalds had called the police about loiterers taking up lots of space, but not actually buying anything. These reporters were in there to charge up their devices. Can't say I agree with having SWAT remove them, but I can' say I agree with much of anything going on in Ferguson at the moment. A cycle of negative reinforcement. A race to the bottom.

There is so much commentary that is tangential to this situation that it's nearly impossible to discuss it all in one sitting. And I mean, sit back, dig deep, and actually discuss. It will never happen. White folks can't discuss it or we're racist. "Privileged" people can't discuss it, because ya know, they're priviliged. Black folks can't discuss it because "it's cultural." Meanwhile, people do stupid crap, people respond stupidly, people get hurt. Faux outrage ensues.

SWAT should be used to remove cafe internet squatters! j/k

I just had a long conversation with my 65 yr. old AA neighbor about everything but Ferguson. We know better than to harsh our mellow.

[ericpmoss]

Cliven Bundy's friends aimed loaded weapons at Federal officers, bragged about how many they'd kill, ranted about revolution, and the gov't. backed off to the jeers and hoots of people tired of "the police state". Some people protesting the killing of an unarmed person get LRADs pointed at them, faced by military assault vehicles manned by snipers I can't tell from Marines in Fallujah, and some how it's the fault of the protesters and media. One situation involved white neo-confederates, the other blacks. As a priveleged white dude, I'm horrified by how people are making excuses for the militarization of the police. They do not own us. Or are we supposed to act like they do? I've never even had a parking ticket, so don't talk about "respect for the law" to me. I don't need it.

[TexPat]

The militarisation of police departments around the US has been going on for years. Ever wonder what happens to the soldiers who returned from Iraq and Afghanistan, many of whom have trouble reintegrating to civilian life?
They join the police.
There is nothing in the US--especially, Ferguson, Missouri--that even comes remotely close to a day in the life of a US soldier in Fallujah or Kabul. By this, I mean that many of the just-out-of-combat grunts have no business being in a police uniform in Anytown, America. You'll have to trust me having real life experience with this.
All of this is exacerbated by the zeitgeist since 2001 which has instilled fear and aggression in a majority of mainstream America.
How many of the officers in Ferguson are combat vets?
How has twenty years of war hardened and militarised authority in America?
Ponder that.

And by the way, I grew up in the US and am one of the few male members of my family who didn't serve in the military. My perspective comes from 35 years of living as a citizen contrasted by ten years of living abroad and looking back from afar, which I often find deeply depressing.

[Mabouya]

Edit: deleted clever but inflammatory response to Corso that quoted my current favorite politician, Mo Brooks.

[Joel Benjamin L]

i am an american citizen, grew up in and live in the us — and i am so tired of the post George W. Bush fascination with calling the US the freest or best free country. It just feels to me like a puerile and ultimately meaningless statement.

[vertical_doug]

I wonder when present day America will have a 'moment' like Birmingham and Selma-Montgomery marches back in the 60's when the middle gets disgusted and mad enough to demand change.

The militarization of the police is just to intimidate. I think the infatuation with 'non-lethal' is just as dangerous. Because it is not viewed as lethal, you can get rogue officers who will use it to teach a lesson. I remember the UC-Davis students handcuffed and already kneeling on the sidewalk only to get face blasted by an officer with pepper spray. Or how about the two young women behind a police fence in NYC during OWS, who were blasted point blank by pepper spray from an officer. The multiple tasings of suspects, etc etc.

Liberal/Conservatives are both responsible for the abuses. I liked many things of Michael Bloomberg, but always felt he had a heavy hand when dealing with political dissent.

The police mindset has to move from 'Respect of the Law' to 'Protect and serve'.

Whenever I hear someone demanding respect, I think of a stripper who has lost hers and gets all made when she thinks you disrespect her.
Ponder this...

[Earl Gray]

I know almost nothing about this situation and thus will not comment on any particulars. However, without clear, irrevocable and indisputable proof of wrong doing I FULLY support the actions of LEO.

[Loki]

Militarization of Police departments, press screaming 24/7, Department of Ag, BLM , Nasa , buying assault rifles , millions of rounds , hacking and eavesdropping on the media and everyone else, "All is quiet on the inner city front" .

[nahtnoj]

A police copter was shot at. A cop was injured by a brick. Stores looted, buildings burned. Why are all of you ignoring this? THIS is why the police reacted. PERIOD.
If the Police didn’t come in heavy, are you sure the violence would not have gotten worse? Can they afford to take that gamble?

The Police are in a no-win situation. Let the town burn, and the city council, property owners, bystanders injured by the “protesters, insurance companies, fire department, etc etc will complain the Police didn’t do enough to control the situation.

Come in with force that the TRAINED POLICE feel is needed by law enforcement professionals, and now it’s a Racist Police state.

YOUR street is burning: You want the police to come in hard, or sit by and wait till “everyone hugs it out?"

The McD think is stupid on all fronts.

I’m not saying the police are 100% right, but I’m so tired of this anti-police wave of bullshit when they are reacting to their circumstances, i.e., doing their job.

The police were the proximate cause of citizen response - looting, fires, etc. - you describe. The police shot and killed an unarmed 17 year old under circumstances that have not been adequately explained. At this stage, I really don't care too much about them and the risks they are subjected to. The onus is on the police to deescalate the situation, and explain to people who have what seem like very legitimate grievances just what the hell happened, and then make sure it never happens again. Their job is supposed to be dangerous. They also aren't supposed to kill unarmed citizens for no good reason. Perhaps if they weren't so insulated from the results of their actions, and didn't have the ability to "come in heavy" after killing someone for no good reason, they'd behave with a little more respect and civility in the first place.

[Mr B]

This situation has reminded me that I never see beat cops in my city.

Come to New York. They hang out on the street in groups of six or eight (real efficient). This week and next, they're focusing on ticketing cyclists. Absolute top-priority stuff here.

As for the top 1% paying 43% of Taxes; That might impress me if we appeared to get anything for it. Amongst many other things the US government don't (but really ought to) do for us, we have to pay for our own Healthcare and Dental care, and file our own Taxes. Christ, this city doesn't even clean its own fucking sidewalks.

[Matthew J]

MathewJ; America is the best free country in the world, but that does not give you the RIGHT to say anything you want anywhere you want. If you think that’s the way real life is, you have a lot of growing up to do.

Actually it is fairly well established that the United States is not the most free country in the World. Although by saying America (a continent - albeit I am not sure whether you mean North or South) perhaps you are referencing Canada?

All I’m saying is this: The Police tell you to do something, you do it. Especially in a potentially violent situation, which IT STILL IS. Everyone wants to get on TV and youtube, and causing trouble with the police is the fastest way to get there.

A police copter was shot at. A cop was injured by a brick. Stores looted, buildings burned. Why are all of you ignoring this? THIS is why the police reacted. PERIOD.
If the Police didn’t come in heavy, are you sure the violence would not have gotten worse? Can they afford to take that gamble?.

Obviously I have the advantage of speaking after the fact, but as the more intelligent and far less militant police presence now that the Missouri State Police have taken over from the St. Louis County authorities clearly show a proportionate response is by far the better response.

The Police are in a no-win situation. Let the town burn, and the city council, property owners, bystanders injured by the “protesters, insurance companies, fire department, etc etc will complain the Police didn’t do enough to control the situation.

Maybe out in New England small majority black suburbs have a Tiffanys and luxury chocolate shop on every corner. But based on my tours in the Midwest, there are not a whole hell of a lot of insurable properties in places like the poorer areas of a Ferguson, MO. The Quick Mart was almost certainly the top of the line store in that neighborhood. The cops were not there to protect property where the protesters were protesting. Rather, the majority white police force were there to insure the black kids stayed in the 65% or Ferguson that was black and stayed the hell away from the 25% of town that is white.

Come in with force that the TRAINED POLICE feel is needed by law enforcement professionals, and now it’s a Racist Police state.

Again - and cannot say this enough - the difference between the Missouri State Police action last night and what the local police were doing the previous night simply underscores how poorly trained and out of control the local police were.

I’m not saying the police are 100% right, but I’m so tired of this anti-police wave of bullshit when they are reacting to their circumstances, i.e., doing their job.

Being anti-Police State is not being anti-Police. In the United States the job of the police is not to strut around like ersatz Special Ops Forces*. It is to serve and protect the citizens.

*Speaking of which, from everything I've read about the raid to get OBL, those Navy Seals had less weaponry than the Ferguson cops rolled out the last couple nights.

[Loknor]

So much head- and heartache reading all this.

Why is someone raving about the 1% paying the most taxes when the issue at hand is the shootng of a teenager?
How does this tax percentage make the police violence okay?
Why is a protester with his hands in the air deserving to have 3-4 semi-automatic weapons aimed at him?

Clearly al this has been shown to be nonsensical by the current realization by the state government that this is not the way to handle things. Contrary to what one person here thinks, the disarmament and the opening of dialogue of the police immediately had effect.

[Ignignokt]

I haven't been following this story but after just a quick check up on the internet...all this happening and no one knows what actually happened during the shooting?

[dgaddis]

I haven't been following this story but after just a quick check up on the internet...all this happening and no one knows what actually happened during the shooting?

The Police say "X", several eye witnesses say "-X".

[Loki]

The Police say "X", several eye witnesses say "-X".

other witness say Y

[Corso]

Loknor,
Go back and read this from the beginning. No one has made a connection between 1% and police violence.

Mathew: Happy Friday to you. When I state the police were out to protect property, you counter with “white property and keep the blacks out of white neighborhoods”, it’s no use trying to reason with you. You discount the Quickmart’s value, but to the owner, it may have been his whole world. Everything isn’t always Black & White.

State Police: If the State Police came in the first night while the crowd was burning, looting and calling for death to cops, don’t be so sure that they wouldn’t have rolled in the same way, if not harder. Coming in 5 days afterwards is comparing apples to oranges.

My prediction: When (if) the Officer goes to trial, if shooting was found justified, there will be a riot. If guilty, whatever the sentence will be, there will be a riot.

And in preparation for that action, Law enforcement will have to be prepared for it. Because that’s their job.

[jclay]

Tomgram: Matthew Harwood, One Nation Under SWAT | TomDispatch

Worth reading...not just the particular article but the site in general if one is interested in thoughtful, circumspect analysis of substantial topics. Not recommended for those uncomfortable with challenges to their world or ideological belief structures.