Trangender & Sports

[nate2351]

I struggled to even watch last summers 800 meter Olympics women's race with Caster Semenya. I felt for the women who had to compete against her, and cannot see how this could right, fair, or a level playing field. Time will tell I suppose, but that race, it wasn't right.

I don't hear folks asking for Usain Bolt or Michael Phelps to be banned for being to dominant.

[spopepro]

BS with the political correctness crap I've read here.

<snipped straightfire>

froze,
catch your breath, and realize that the wrestler you cite had to compete against women because of the rule that you said needs to be enforced. The wrestler is a boy. He wants to compete against boys. The state's rule, and the rule that you say should happen, has that boy (yes, transgender boy) competing against women because that's what's marked on the boy's birth certificate. Which way should it go?

[nate2351]

For those who get confused; transgender boy = born girl

[theflashunc]

Does Laverne Cox really need to use the men's room?

[choke]

I imagine that most of you aren't aware that there is a transgender Pro woman cyclist, Natalie van Gogh.

[spopepro]

As a process observation, and for the continued unlocked nature of this thread, it might be wise to stick to the OPs questions about competition and leave the bathrooms to the Supreme Court for the moment.

[Matthew Strongin]

BS with the political correctness crap I've read here...<snip>

froze, you are entitled to your opinions, but drop the projections of violence and hate when sharing them here. This is not the place for that kind of talk and it won't be tolerated.

As a process observation, and for the continued unlocked nature of this thread, it might be wise to stick to the OPs questions about competition and leave the bathrooms to the Supreme Court for the moment.

This would be a wise strategy for what has generally been a thoughtful discussion on an interesting and relevant topic.

While this topic can often be divisive and conflicting, I encourage everyone to muster all the empathy they can and think about what it would be like to live one single day as a transgender person. As with most difficult situations involving people, empathy can go a long way towards understanding and maybe even acceptance.

[mjbabcock]

While this topic can often be divisive and conflicting, I encourage everyone to muster all the empathy they can and think about what it would be like to live one single day as a transgender person. As with most difficult situations involving people, empathy can go a long way towards understanding and maybe even acceptance.

As someone who works with young adults for a living, I want to add to what Strongin says. Folks who have identities on the gender spectrum that are not simply male/female, life is incredibly challenging. Suicide is all too often the easier path when compared to living. From what I can tell, this is what life was like for gay and lesbian folks in the days of Matthew Shepard. If the rhetoric is so inflammatory, then these folks are dehumanized and become little more than objects of derision. It would really...and I mean Really, be helpful for you to meet individuals who are transgender. These people are not perverts who want to go into the girls bathrooms...that is framing you have as someone who would do inappropriate things if you were able to go into a women's bathroom at will. As someone who is a cis-gendered heterosexual man, I would attend to certain things if there were women in my locker room...a trans-man attends to different things, primarily their safety.

That said, I'm relatively certain that your grand-daughter has already shared public restrooms with trans-women. She just doesn't know it and neither do you because those trans folks are among the "regular" people who just need to take a shit now and then.

For those who are interested, investigate how gender and sexuality are different, how the gender spectrum functions, and think back to those effeminate men and masculine women you knew back when you were all forced to be in the same space. Not all women and men are the same, and I'd wager a bet that you knew some girls that were more "man" than some men, and vice versa.

[JoB]

You are wrong on several things (it is not "real simple"), one of them being that the TX case is about a girl identifying as 'male' who was forced to wrestle against other girls by state regulations.

BS with the political correctness crap I've read here.

For me it's real simple how where a person can play in sports and what bathroom they may use. Ready? I know some of you are going to find this very difficult to swallow but here it is...if the person in question has male parts that person must participate in male side of the sports, and that person must use a male restroom, and vice a versa if the person is a female. I don't care how or what the person thinks they are if they have the parts, if they don't like that then I suggest they get surgery and have the parts removed and whatever sex parts are needed to convert them the other way installed, and take whatever drugs needed to keep them that way.

It's real simple.

We've already had some high school male who decided to be a female wrestler smash all the female contestants to his run to the state championship...well duh! Most men have superior upper body strength over most women. This particular boy went undefeated the whole season. Transgender boy wins girls' wrestling championship in Texas - CNN.com That girl that had to wrestle him for the state title was devastated by the loss, but she didn't stand a chance. So is this kind of devastation the thing we need to expect for the future of sports in America? Guys who are too weak to take on the boys simply take on the girls and clean up. If anything, if this nonsense is allowed to continue it will end female sports, it will instead be ruled by transgender males. No it won't you say? Really? I think some of you need to rethink this further.

Besides that, if I ever see a man walk into a public women's restroom while my grand daughter is in there I will remove him from the restroom violently after I ask him if he mistaken the women's restroom for the men's. I don't even care if I get arrested or sued, I have a great lawyer with connections all over the country and a very high liability limit so I'll fight the prick again in court as far as he wants to take it. I can hear the bleeding liberals screaming at me for that remark. And if you think you're OK with the risk, which deep down inside I doubt any of you really would want your preteen or teen age girl in the same bathroom with a strange man, but anyway read this: Doc: ‘Gender neutral’ bathrooms are dangerous

That's fine if you want to protect transgender people, but don't let them use the opposite sex public bathrooms, don't let them participate in the opposite sex sports unless they have complete sexual transformation done.

I guess we could always open a new window in sports, male sports, women sports, and transgender sports, that way the transgender can compete against other transgenders, at least that would be fair.

[froze]

froze,
catch your breath, and realize that the wrestler you cite had to compete against women because of the rule that you said needs to be enforced. The wrestler is a boy. He wants to compete against boys. The state's rule, and the rule that you say should happen, has that boy (yes, transgender boy) competing against women because that's what's marked on the boy's birth certificate. Which way should it go?

so which is it for this person? male or female? What parts was this person born with? And can it be verified what parts they had?

What's weird I've heard news that said he was wanting to be a girl not a boy, in fact in the report I quoted it says this: "If he has been taking hormones, or steroids, he should be wrestling boys," said Melissa Roush, an adult and youth counselor who attended the championship meet." So this person is wrestling illegal due to doping. Should doping be acceptable in sports just because they want to change sex?

[spopepro]

so which is it for this person? male or female? What parts was this person born with? And can it be verified what parts they had?

What's weird I've heard news that said he was wanting to be a girl not a boy, in fact in the report I quoted it says this: "If he has been taking hormones, or steroids, he should be wrestling boys," said Melissa Roush, an adult and youth counselor who attended the championship meet." So this person is wrestling illegal due to doping. Should doping be acceptable in sports just because they want to change sex?

Well, your news was wrong. The boy in question wants to wrestle boys. The state won't let him because his birth certificate says "F". As far as what "parts"? Aside from that not having to do with gender and being private medical information, it's not always cut and dry...

[edoz]

For those who get confused; transgender boy = born girl

Thank you, seriously.

[mbrtool]

froze, you are entitled to your opinions, but drop the projections of violence and hate when sharing them here. This is not the place for that kind of talk and it won't be tolerated.



This would be a wise strategy for what has generally been a thoughtful discussion on an interesting and relevant topic.

While this topic can often be divisive and conflicting, I encourage everyone to muster all the empathy they can and think about what it would be like to live one single day as a transgender person. As with most difficult situations involving people, empathy can go a long way towards understanding and maybe even acceptance.

You moderators do a great job. Thank you,
Ray

[GonaSovereign]

I'd like to note this thread would have fallen apart in most corners of the internet.

You're being thoughtful in the face of complexity, and that's a big ask in this crazy world of ours.

[pdmtong]

BS with the political correctness crap I've read here.

For me it's real simple how where a person can play in sports and what bathroom they may use. Ready? I know some of you are going to find this very difficult to swallow but here it is...if the person in question has male parts that person must participate in male side of the sports, and that person must use a male restroom, and vice a versa if the person is a female. I don't care how or what the person thinks they are if they have the parts, if they don't like that then I suggest they get surgery and have the parts removed and whatever sex parts are needed to convert them the other way installed, and take whatever drugs needed to keep them that way.

It's real simple.

We've already had some high school male who decided to be a female wrestler smash all the female contestants to his run to the state championship...well duh! Most men have superior upper body strength over most women. This particular boy went undefeated the whole season. Transgender boy wins girls' wrestling championship in Texas - CNN.com That girl that had to wrestle him for the state title was devastated by the loss, but she didn't stand a chance. So is this kind of devastation the thing we need to expect for the future of sports in America? Guys who are too weak to take on the boys simply take on the girls and clean up. If anything, if this nonsense is allowed to continue it will end female sports, it will instead be ruled by transgender males. No it won't you say? Really? I think some of you need to rethink this further.

Besides that, if I ever see a man walk into a public women's restroom while my grand daughter is in there I will remove him from the restroom violently after I ask him if he mistaken the women's restroom for the men's. I don't even care if I get arrested or sued, I have a great lawyer with connections all over the country and a very high liability limit so I'll fight the prick again in court as far as he wants to take it. I can hear the bleeding liberals screaming at me for that remark. And if you think you're OK with the risk, which deep down inside I doubt any of you really would want your preteen or teen age girl in the same bathroom with a strange man, but anyway read this: Doc: ‘Gender neutral’ bathrooms are dangerous

That's fine if you want to protect transgender people, but don't let them use the opposite sex public bathrooms, don't let them participate in the opposite sex sports unless they have complete sexual transformation done.

I guess we could always open a new window in sports, male sports, women sports, and transgender sports, that way the transgender can compete against other transgenders, at least that would be fair.

I do not mind, in fact I welcome and intentionally read opinions that are contrary to mine. How else can we remind ourselves of the differing perspectives that comprise our collective experience?

That said, your expressed opinion is muddied and diluted since it is incarnated in what reads to me more like a defiant rant than a thoughtful expression.

It is not so simple being the minority and not the majority. Around here, we are peg the tolerance scale. Summer camp applications ask what gender the camper prefers to identify with. Gender neutral, gender fluid, gender non-compliant...terms I never heard of growing up are now part of the vocabulary of anyone growing up in these times. Even the catholic school my daughter attends (ironic, we are not catholic), the one that just scored the $$M on initial investment in SNAP, has a LGBT club.

Frankly, I am tired of reading the ongoing LGBT challenges but that is only because long ago myself, my wife, and my daughter accepted embraced and empathized with their struggles. But reading your thoughts is a stark reminder that is not the case elsewhere. And the conversation and education must continue.

[Will Neide]

I'm guessing most (all?) responders in this thread are male.

I personally don't care what sex I compete against. I'd leave the decision up to the females (born female) to decide.

[spopepro]

Thank you, seriously.

I'm unsure if I should do this, so if I'm talking too much feel free to tell me to pound rocks. But since some seem to be interested in learning more, I think this might be useful.

When we talk about gender identity issues we *are not* talking about sexual orientation or preference. Even though they often get lumped together for social and civil rights purposes, nothing I'm going to say below has anything to do with sexual orientation or preference. I think that's important to recognize, because when we are talking about kids, they don't have a sexual orientation, but they definitely are affected by the following issues.

There are three major areas of sex and gender. Presentation, gender identity, and sex.

Presentation is about the social norms about how one chooses to present themselves, their interests, and how they see themselves outwardly in the world. Presentation is probably the most fluid and accepted (think Tomboy, or similar) but can be an issue when being asked to fit in. We likely have a number of members here who present ouside of the societal norms, but have typical gender identities and sex.

If presentation is on the outside, Gender Identity is about what a person feels about themselves on the inside. This is what gender a person feels they are, regardless of all the other issues. Specifically, if we are talking about transgender people we are talking about people who have changed their gender identity. If a person with XX chromosomes and female sex organs has been raised their whole life as a man, and feels that way about themselves, they would *not* be called transgender. Research has found that this is often an early developing trait; when surveyed about "when did you know you were not the gender you were being raised as?" the most common response was "when I was 5 years old". Very frequently, transgender people will want their secondary sex characteristics to align with how they see themselves (but not always).

Sex is the biological stuff that we mostly know how to measure. You would think this would finally be a clear binary option, but no, intersex people are much more common than most people realize. Pairings of chromosomes that are neither XX or XY, mixed up jumbles of sex organs... there's all kinds of stuff that happens and few are willing to talk about it. The video I posted above has some young intersex people talking about themselves and their experience.

Yes, these different parameters are often interrelated, but they aren't exclusively. I figured I probably needed to say more since I dropped a couple of statements in other places that may have seemed odd if you haven't been exposed to much of this stuff.

[bking]

It's important to note that Caster is *NOT* transgender. Caster is, and has always been a woman. If you want to start talking about hormone levels, possible intersex conditions and other such stuff, that can be a different debate, but it doesn't have much to do with transgender athletes. The logical conclusion of that particular discussion is group racing by hemocrit, VO2max, and functional testosterone numbers.


P.S. I followed a couple of links, and yeah, the other competitors don't exactly cover themselves in glory here.

"A Polish middle distance runner who finished fifth in the women’s 800m final won by Caster Semenya at the Rio Olympics has claimed she “feels like a silver medallist”. Joanna Jozwik also appeared to controversially claim that she was proud to have finished as the “first European” and the “second white” in the race."

Ahh, thank you. I do remember reading this during the time, slipped my mind. Her's is a particularly tough problem, born without ovaries or a womb, but has internal testes that produce testosterone more in line with a man. This in may be a harder case. Still, at the end of a New York Times article regarding Semenya the author closes with the thought that it would not be fair to keep her from running in the Olympic womens events just because of the way she was born. Millions of us are kept from competing because of the way we were born. Competing for the honor of Olympic or world champion is not the same as choosing which bathroom to use.
Someove above said statistically it's no big deal, probably right today. What happens though to women's sports when a trans woman sets a mark no woman can touch? What happens when multiple records are set in similar fashion? Time will tell, hopefully the experiment doesn't ruin women's sport.

[Sizzler]

Serious question, so please don't dismiss it right away: explain the difference between a man who feels he was born to be a masculine, strong and manly man and therefore takes whatever is available to make that happen, and a man who feels he was born a female and takes steps to make that happen? Now, extend and apply this to cycling and explain the difference.

Also, for transparency, I am a male, and have a trans sister.

[sk_tle]

The real questions is : are our hormonal level differences the only significant ones as far as our performance level is concerned.them

We've heard studies that people taking steroïd at some point in their life still benefiting from some advantage years later after they stop using it. Is it the same with testoesterone / lack of estrogen ? What about other differencies ?

All I know is at "recreative level" there aren't that many difference in endurance sports between mens and womens. Those who have more time to train are faster / more endurant, mens tend to be faster in short burst but that's about it. At elite level the difference is huge.