When your friends all move to the 'burbs and become unresponsive...

[j44ke]

Malaga !

Oh well, maybe you won't miss the vineyards! That's a great move.

[Octave]

I don't think that's what he meant, I don't think he meant having kids is better or more important than not having kids. The difference is kid-free people have more choices available. Once someone makes the choice to have a kid or two, lots of other choices are taken off the table.

The kid free person can stay at work as late as they want or need to. After work they can go ride bikes, or go the gym, or go hang with friends, or go out to a movie, or whatever. Someone with a kid, depending on the kids age and their partner/spouses schedule, may or may not have those same choices available.

That's the problem with this assumption, though - kids-free people do not inherently have more time available. They have chosen to alot it elsewhere. Person A has children, which I understand is a huge amount of time-commitment. Person B has a full-time job (40h/week), hustles freelance in the evenings (20h/week) and coaches cyclists 5 mornings a week before work (20h/week). Person B has no kids. Person A and person B have both made their choices and neither commitment takes precedence over another, that's all I'm trying to say. For person B, "lots of other choices are taken off the table" too. But none of those details matter, because no ones time is worth more or less than anyone elses. If you choose to prioritize children then kudos, that's a really big life choice. But those who have chosen other paths may have similarly dedicated their time elsewhere.

[robin3mj]

One thing I've learned since having kids, especially when 2&3 arrived together, is that to see anyone ever, you need to plan 3x as many events as you actually want to take part in, because someone is always sick, has to cancel, etc.
It's exhausting. And I'm not a planner, so the idea of coordinating all these events that likely will fall apart is pretty daunting. But we make it happen on occasion (mainly thanks to my wife...)

I now live (again) in the same place that many of my good college buddies have lived since we all graduated, and out of 7-8 of them, I probably see them each 2-3x a year, and it was only the year we turned 40 that you'd ever see more than a couple at once.

Hell, I haven't been out to dinner with my wife since September.

I'd say either re-double your efforts to make things happen, or let it go entirely, because if you assume the old levels of effort are sufficient, you'll probably be disappointed.

[j44ke]

What bothers me the most is that the friends with kids stopped inviting me (us) over for family parties. I think that the "they don't have kids so they must not want to be around kids" mentality sinks in. I used to consider my buddy's family part of my extended family. Not close enough to call them up to hang out but close enough that we would enjoy seeing each other a few times a year. That ended years ago.

Some people are good at staying in touch and making time to hang out. Whether it is going out to dinner or just inviting us over after work. They want adult time so they make it work.

Often though it is the decision that "I can only manage the kids, not entertaining friends also." So as the friend without kids, you get jettisoned just because there isn't enough left over in the tank to say "Hi, how are you?"

Agree with Thomas. As an outside observer, less is more when it comes to wrangling kids. In the US, we buy way too much stuff for our kids and then we wonder why they develop into little self-absorbed despots. But don't get me started. This thread is about making friends not irritating them! :-)

[Christian Fox]

The end of the original post is an avalanche of city-slicker cliches about white people raising kids. So, if new parents pick up on the "I'm cooler than my newly dorky suburban hell parent friends" vibe, that may be a turn-off. They don't give you a pair of pleated Dockers and white tennis shoes when you leave the hospital with your kid.

[dgaddis]

* Dustin, I advise you to do the same, life is much simpler that way. Most of that crap you carry probably only serve a purpose in a "what if" situation and can be replaced by something "not baby specific" found in the place you visit. A basic kit doesn't imply filling the trunk of your car.

That's exactly what we do. Everything we need to be out and about all day (minus the stroller) fits into a backpack. Overnight trips require more stuff obviously, but normal day to day is a smallish backpack.

I'm looking forward to when Nora has enough teeth that she can eat just normal food.

[theflashunc]

Grand changes in one's life tend to reveal a lot about friendships. Nearly 4 years ago now my wife and I sold most of our earthly possessions (and our home) and moved across the ocean. The first year was a whirlwind of working very hard to maintain important relationships with the friends that we had known and loved for many years (in some cases, decades). In the end, I would say that we had about a 90% attrition rate. At some point it becomes very clear who is going to make the effort to maintain a relationship that was once easy and has now become less-so and those who will not. A couple of our friends facetime or skype with us on an almost weekly basis, a couple have even visited. Others completely fell off the map, stopped responding to our requests for calls/chats and even flaked on us when we came to visit our old city. It's not exactly the same situation, but similar.

I think in the end we are better off for it. Our circle of friends is significantly smaller than it once was but also significantly richer.


Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

Easy man. I'm also in the no kids ever camp. I've seen it first hand. You have more free time. Especially if the kids are little. Give em space and let em do their thing. Friendships change and evolve and sometimes, yeah, they disappear.

But kids are a whole nother ballgame. I've seen friends age like a Dorian Gray painting in those first couple years after having their first. Shit is hard. It's one reason why I've got no interest in it.

You've got two things parents don't, money and free time. That's okay. Again, to your point, you made different choices. Hell, they're the same ones I've made. But I stand by my original point. As you mentioned in your OP, you were willing to reorient your entire life to maintain some of these relationships. If that doesn't speak to your kidless flexibility, what does?

[Octave]

Fair enough - I had no intention of offending you. The only point I wanted to make is that the choices we make are just that, choices. I do have kidless flexibility, but that is not inherently true for all kidless people. Like I said before, everyone gets to choose how they spend their time and telling somebody that they're "the one with all the time" just because they have stated that they don't have kids is a bit of a loaded assumption, in my opinion.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Christian Fox]

Fair enough - I had no intention of offending you. The only point I wanted to make is that the choices we make are just that, choices. I do have kidless flexibility, but that is not inherently true for all kidless people. Like I said before, everyone gets to choose how they spend their time and telling somebody that they're "the one with all the time" just because they have stated that they don't have kids is a bit of a loaded assumption, in my opinion.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

Don't forget, most people who have kids spent a lot of time as adults without kids (like me), so they're not talking out of their ass when they say the kidless have more time. Of course you have more time. That is precisely the choice you have made, the choice to have the time to do whatever you want (within reason) free from the worry and responsibilty of keeping a small human alive.

You didn't choose cycling, or work, or painting over kids, you chose time. The choice isn't between what you do with your free time and kids, it's whether your choose to have the free time in the first place.

[rwsaunders]

We didn’t have kids for ten years after being married and I call that era BC...before children. Time was much more available, our lifestyle was much more detached from planned and routine activities and we also weren’t in a digital world, which can be a time suck in itself...work, play, surfing, etc. AD...after diapers...changed everything and time became a premium and not that there is a direct correlation, but friends moved on and new friends came on board...different interests, relocation, new partners, etc.

A few common threads that have tied us to both old and new friends, have been kid’s activities, in my particular case coaching (because I couldn’t stand sitting on the sidelines and second guessing life...kids are more interesting that whining parents), short and extended joint vacations and food, with an emphasis on dinner. Rather that always going to a restaurant, we take turns hosting, planning meals, discussing wine and just have a fantastic time. We have been able to connect some pretty diverse individuals over a meal, who all have something in common with us as friends, yet open up discussions with an array of perspectives. Our kids even laugh about what they call “our parent’s Bohemian dining events”.

On a related note and almost to a tee, our friends that haven’t had kids, have all been able to retire quite early and do all of the things that we did BC (travel extensively, own recreational homes, follow riskier career paths in some cases). It takes a while to get back in the game after the kids move on and time above ground becomes more scarce as well. We are fortunate to have a couple of longtime friends with whom we get to share time and thoughts with; some have kids and some don’t; and I think that we have all remained friends because we know that life required adjustments.

[caleb]

The back and forth about time here is interesting.

Last night I wrote this after getting fed up trying for three months and at least ten emails to get a single overnight mountain bike trip planned in August.

One of the guys who can't seem to take two days out of the whole summer away has a stay at home wife and a pretty much full time nanny.

[caleb]

They’re putting their kids needs before their own, as they should.

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

And then they feel awkward about you not having kids, about you and your spouse having regular sex

This made me laugh out loud. I thought it was just my friends who seemed fascinated with our sex life, as if it were just a live action skin flick on loop every night.

[dogrange]

The back and forth about time here is interesting.

Last night I wrote this after getting fed up trying for three months and at least ten emails to get a single overnight mountain bike trip planned in August.

One of the guys who can't seem to take two days out of the whole summer away has a stay at home wife and a pretty much full time nanny.

Agreed. It is possible to have kids and still do some fun things and see your friends, but it requires a teamwork-mindset with you and your spouse/partner. You won't be able to do as much as if you didn't have kids, but enough. I played in a rock band once with 3 other guys, out of the 4 of us, 3 had kids and professional timesuck jobs, but often it was the kidless guy who had the most scheduling problems because he did not have good teamwork with his wife sorted out.

[bcm119]

I’m another never-kids DINK. From what I’ve observed from our parent friends, who are mostly in the little league & soccer phase now, is that having kids-- especially in an expensive metro area like SF-- is absolutely brutal. Just grueling. We always come away from seeing them thinking, how the hell do they do it? It’s not for me, that’s for sure. But, what I’ve found helps maintain relationships with our parent friends is not projecting your own feelings about kids onto them— trust that they actually are enjoying the shit out of it, as hard and miserable as it looks to you. When they say “it’s all worth it” I take them at their word, and that helps me feel more interested in sharing their experiences as opposed to steering clear of anything involving the kids. Sometimes it’s easier said than done. But yeah, they rarely have time or energy to hang. But we keep a relationship percolating, and in another 5-10 years when the kids are way too cool to hang out with their parents, we’ll pick up where we left off.

[vertical_doug]

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

Generally Caleb, I agree with you, but here I think you are off the reservation. (and this phrase has a dark past)


Great, you have an academically advanced child with no social skills just as they are going to enter the most difficult part of their childhood transitioning from family focused, to outside peer group focused.


Your cliches on the parents are accurate, but it takes two to tango, so no adult man needs to go mountain biking with his buddies on a weekend away from family. (just because it's not a necessity doesn't mean you can't want it)

Your buddies have moved on, let it go. The one having an issue here is you, not them.
If anything, count your blessings it's them and not you and enjoy your ride and other recreational post ride activities which will remain nameless.

(actually, I 'd probably feel a little sad for some of your friends because there are probably other factors in the equation which really are a burden for them to deal with. Maybe your buddy is too proud to admit his wife is hell, or he is miserable or any number of insecurities people have )

[Chik]

Also, there are more than one way to do parenting.

Kids, especially babies are much more adaptable and much less fragile than some parents tend to think of it. When we got our first baby, we were the first couple in a relatively large circle of friends to have kids. We eased it up a bit on the getting out with friends but we never stopped. We made a point of not buying every little specialized appliance/tool/thing for babies and limited ourself to common sense. All immediate needs of our baby would have to fit in a single regular size backpack and they did*. As long as a baby is fed, hydrated and wears appropriate clothing it can stay with you pretty much anywhere. It's is especially easier nowadays with the ban on smoking in public places and bars. Our babies were carried in many drinks, dinners. We sometimes came both with the kid and we took turns to decide which one of us would stay with the friends well into the night and dance clubs. Our babies started their night in all kind of places, my second daughters even fell asleep right before the national day's fireworks and didn't wake up. Sadly most of these "friends" didn't do the same once they got their own kids.

So yes, you don't have to give up on everything and the flexibility should come from both parents and non parents.

So true. We used to make do with a medium sized messenger bag and marvelled at friends who carried so much stuff as if they were a travelling circus.

Some people fuss too much about WHERE the baby should sleep as if the child can/should sleep only in his / her cot. Yes, they should probably have regular sleep cycles but WHERE is not that important. We went out with the infant daughter in tow to restos, dinner parties, etc., and she would just sleep wherever we were. When she was 2 weeks old, the wife flew out to SF from NY with her for an all-night photo shoot of a recently completed project. No problems: she just slept when she needed to sleep.

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

Some people create more stress for themselves. And why can't kids just be kids any more? Call me a dinosaur, but I find it all rather bizarre.

[deano]

The end of the original post is an avalanche of city-slicker cliches about white people raising kids. So, if new parents pick up on the "I'm cooler than my newly dorky suburban hell parent friends" vibe, that may be a turn-off. They don't give you a pair of pleated Dockers and white tennis shoes when you leave the hospital with your kid.

That is actually cool now. Google norm core.

[mjbabcock]

Yeah, that list is indicative of insanity/vanity. Let them go. They lost their minds.

To keep the conversation going, the thing that seems crazy to me these days is how parents are using athletics as a tool for social advancement. It’s in tons of sports; soccer, baseball, gymnastics, hockey. Parents plow incredible amounts of energy into their children’s athletic careers. Sort of reminds me of East-Asian academic intensities wherein students study before school, go to school, and then work with a tutor before homework in the evening.

My kids are fucked...but they are gonna have fun.

[Christian Fox]

That is actually cool now. Google norm core.

Nervous. Don't want New Balance ads popping up everywhere.

[lumpy]

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

This is not intended as a personal criticism, Caleb.

But I find a distinct irony in this list being posted on this particular forum, where we voluntarily engage in lengthy threads about which bicycle to buy next, recovering perfectly good saddles so they have the desired color, and the appropriateness of housing and handlebar tape choices.

Some people get super wrapped up in things, as I think we can all recognize, but geez, if you are going to obsess about something, it might as well be your kids. I don't think those parenting styles are optimal but I know a lot of perfectly nice kids that grew up that way.