When your friends all move to the 'burbs and become unresponsive...

[ron l edmiston]

-- tammy and i married 40 years -- 4/14...
so much has changed relative to our numerous moves...

i was corporate, married at 34.. tammy 21, a lovely lady desiring to be a mother..
i liked children, but did not want to own one!! i had no brothers or sisters..
we had ashley when i was 38..
not a good father, yes i provided all the financial security plus plus...
i was traveling worldwide with my corporate life and so many late and weekend hours when i was in town..
when i was home, mentally not home, still in corporate life..

friends moving all over so no real ties..
then all of sudden, ashley off to the university of florida --- i missed the diper changing, daddy goodnights, school involvements ---- tammy was there always..

financial, corporate, career achievement in the positive --- home, father, husband and real friendship achievements in the red..

i have been blessed for a few more years prior to taps ---- damn, so wonderful being a father and holding/hugging my ashley and loving her unconditionallly..
& our grandaughter, sydney, "being able to go where i never once was.."

[gt6267a]

While this discussion has gone down many roads, as the father of a 2 yr old, I’ll share some thoughts about babies and friends. In the end, I haven’t gained or lost friends due to the balance bike riding dare devil. The most important part here is not fighting change but embracing the new.

Example:

Will the wife and I meet you out for dinner or drinks at 9pm?

Probably not. To leave the house after bedtime costs me $60 before ubers, drinks, or food. Kid wakes up at the same time every day. Especially during the week, if I’m out late and then need to drive home, that is just time I could have been snoozing.
Instead of trying to relive the glory days, change the story to what works for life now …

1a) We love food and hanging out with friends. We love doing that after the kid has gone to sleep. Resolve the babysitter / can’t-leave-the-house problems by coming to my house. Arrive around 5:00 if you want to see short-stuff or after 7:30. Why not in the middle? Because you don’t fcuk with bedtime or bedtime fcuks with you. Thank you Sheldon Cooper.

1b) Want to turbo charge coming over to our house? Guest chef in our kitchen. We have a lovely gas stove, pots and pans galore, knives sharp enough to cut paper … we’re ready for you. I’m thrilled to open a bottle of wine and clean off the kitchen table. Over the years, I have guest chef’d many times and love when someone does at my place. With a young child, its hard for me to eat dinner at your house. So … make dinner at mine.


2a) Meet me or the wife out on the town. You used to like socializing with both of us. We’re awesome together, but don’t expect us both to go. We both like when the other person gets out for a bit. Once the kid is asleep, having the house to myself for a few hours is cool. Seriously, introverts unite … I miss me spending time with me. Want both of us? Bring a bottle of wine to my house.

2b) Want to make sure your friend can come out again? Send them home with dessert. Never let a friend go home empty handed. You’re splitting the bill right? Just order a dessert and pay for half. It’s a small tax to see your friend. I’ve paid for many a thank you dessert in my time.

2c) Also true of corporate events. Don’t leave your partner at home all day with the kid, come home from a super fab meal, and brag about it without dessert. Just get a brownie ala mode to go and don’t say shit until he/she has had bite #3 or 4.

3a) Recognize that I would love to meet you at the awesome pizza place. I just need to do it at 5. Yes, I am aware that most adults eat at 7 or 8pm … but that is bedtime for shorty. So we eat out at 5 to get home by 7 or 7:30. Instead of telling me you just ate lunch, work with me on the early dinner situation.

Unless your friends are wildly different, the interest is there but they have new variables. Don’t fight them, take advantage of the new. Bring the wine to their house or something similar. Trying to convince new mom and dad to get out on the town at 8pm on Tuesday night. Hard pass.

[Blue Jays]

Sometimes it is easier to let the change be the change. Priorities and responsibilities transition. It happens.
People are terrific and all, yet no need to turn our worlds upside-down because friends wished to have children.

[bcm119]

While this discussion has gone down many roads, as the father of a 2 yr old, I’ll share some thoughts about babies and friends. In the end, I haven’t gained or lost friends due to the balance bike riding dare devil. The most important part here is not fighting change but embracing the new.

Example:

Will the wife and I meet you out for dinner or drinks at 9pm?

Probably not. To leave the house after bedtime costs me $60 before ubers, drinks, or food. Kid wakes up at the same time every day. Especially during the week, if I’m out late and then need to drive home, that is just time I could have been snoozing.
Instead of trying to relive the glory days, change the story to what works for life now …

1a) We love food and hanging out with friends. We love doing that after the kid has gone to sleep. Resolve the babysitter / can’t-leave-the-house problems by coming to my house. Arrive around 5:00 if you want to see short-stuff or after 7:30. Why not in the middle? Because you don’t fcuk with bedtime or bedtime fcuks with you. Thank you Sheldon Cooper.

1b) Want to turbo charge coming over to our house? Guest chef in our kitchen. We have a lovely gas stove, pots and pans galore, knives sharp enough to cut paper … we’re ready for you. I’m thrilled to open a bottle of wine and clean off the kitchen table. Over the years, I have guest chef’d many times and love when someone does at my place. With a young child, its hard for me to eat dinner at your house. So … make dinner at mine.


2a) Meet me or the wife out on the town. You used to like socializing with both of us. We’re awesome together, but don’t expect us both to go. We both like when the other person gets out for a bit. Once the kid is asleep, having the house to myself for a few hours is cool. Seriously, introverts unite … I miss me spending time with me. Want both of us? Bring a bottle of wine to my house.

2b) Want to make sure your friend can come out again? Send them home with dessert. Never let a friend go home empty handed. You’re splitting the bill right? Just order a dessert and pay for half. It’s a small tax to see your friend. I’ve paid for many a thank you dessert in my time.

2c) Also true of corporate events. Don’t leave your partner at home all day with the kid, come home from a super fab meal, and brag about it without dessert. Just get a brownie ala mode to go and don’t say shit until he/she has had bite #3 or 4.

3a) Recognize that I would love to meet you at the awesome pizza place. I just need to do it at 5. Yes, I am aware that most adults eat at 7 or 8pm … but that is bedtime for shorty. So we eat out at 5 to get home by 7 or 7:30. Instead of telling me you just ate lunch, work with me on the early dinner situation.

Unless your friends are wildly different, the interest is there but they have new variables. Don’t fight them, take advantage of the new. Bring the wine to their house or something similar. Trying to convince new mom and dad to get out on the town at 8pm on Tuesday night. Hard pass.

This is great advice, even for those without kids. I'm sick of meeting friends at 9pm, because I'm tired and would rather be on my couch with a beer. I like eating dinner out at 5pm, because restaurants are too loud and crowded at 7pm. I would always prefer friends come to my house --I'll gladly supply the wine and beer and food-- so I don't have to drive home. But for me, setting these conditions would be seen as selfish and/or grouchy, since I have no kids.

I think the crux of the situation, from the no-kids perspective, is that all of our demands and conditions we set are personal choices, and they should all be given equal respect. As someone with no kids, what I push back on is the expectation that I should work around your schedule to the detriment of my own choices most of the time, simply to accommodate your choices to have kids. The implication is that the choice to have kids has a noble purpose greater than my own selfish interests, which I fundamentally disagree with. All of our life choices are worthy of equal respect. That's the view I operate on, and I've maintained good friendships with my parent friends who respect that view, and let the rest slide.

[dgaddis]

All of our life choices are worthy of equal respect.

FALSE!! Dude, have you seen people????? They're the worst! And so many of them make terrrrrrrrible life choices - including having kids.

I once stopped at a Waffle House right around Christmas and heard one of the cooks say something along the lines of "yeah I've gotta go see my five kids tonight, and there's four baby-mamas so I've got a lot of stops to make".

[caleb]

I think the crux of the situation, from the no-kids perspective, is [snip]

There's been a lot of talk, some of it mine, about the interpersonal dynamics involved in maintaining evolving friendships, but that's only part of the situation.

Parents and non-parents alike have mentioned that raising kids and having parent-friends is hard.

It's hard, in part, because good metro schools tend to be in lower density areas in part for historical reasons (white flight) and structural reasons (local property taxes funding schools) that we refuse to address. Human interaction in lower density areas and across greater distances tends to have greater friction and transactional costs, so we see each other less. We become more isolated, because we've incentivized isolation for generations.

I do not envy the choices that parents face as they think about where they move. I'm sure it sucks to move somewhere that otherwise might not be your first choice, while also likely paying a premium, just to get the kids in a particular school. Nobody should have to make that choice.

So last Friday a buddy who now lives on the edge of the city, in a suburb with a great school district but a place he otherwise detests in every way, asked my wife and I to come over for dessert and a bottle of wine. They're a solid 30-45 minutes away, and since I'm not going to come over for wine and cake and then jump back on the freeway, a Lyft was something like 30 bucks each way.

One way to look at it is that the significant distance puts extra burdens on the party doing the traveling, and feel put-upon.

That's not really how I felt about it on Friday, though. Sixty bucks of Lyft fares and an hour in the car was worth it. I just felt bummed that we've created a world where doing what you can to get your kids a decent education means a world where a seeing people is hard.

None of it needs to be this hard for anybody. We could do so much better.

[Corso]

Man, this has become very interesting, or much ado about nothing. I can't decide.

I've worked in Boston for pretty much my entire career. I have NEVER wanted to live in the city, let alone raise my kids there. So I moved to smaller city 25 miles outside of town. I was not "forced" to move away from friends who lived there, as my friends live all over the place. I know plenty of married without kids who have moved out of Boston also. School system played zero part in that.

Not everyone wants to live in a city environment. Great for those who do, it was simply never me. The thought that kids "make" you move out of a city for school is assuming everyone wants to live in one in the first place.

Once we started having kids, I would blow off a night on the town with friends (that pre-kids I would be the ringleader of a night of fun & adventure) because I'd rather be home with my family. I didn't stop liking my friends, I simply wanted to be with my children. Just like all my other friends who started having families, or got married and chose not to have kids--everyone moves on to new priorities.

The friend social "drift" just naturally evolves. Maybe in the big picture, it's supposed to.

[e-RICHIE]

The friend social "drift" just naturally evolves. Maybe in the big picture, it's supposed to.

We touched on this before, earlier.
Some folks don't get it. Won't get it.

[Will Neide]

Sounds like some of you have been voted off the island.

[m_b_b]

I just felt bummed that we've created a world where doing what you can to get your kids a decent education means a world where a seeing people is hard.

None of it needs to be this hard for anybody. We could do so much better.

To take it even a step further beyond the school issue, I think we're seeing a situation where income inequality has become so great and cost of living so high that living in some locations (both urban, and near suburban) it becoming out of reach for many. Family size is one factor (but not the only one) that can intensify that. All of it leads to fractured communities and relationships. No easy fix here.

This thread has had its ups and downs, but it has made me think about how my own interpersonal relationships have changed over the years. Whether due to kids, career, etc. I'm not always happy about those changes. But the barriers to maintaining them should be lower. That extra cost for the Lyft or the sitter or whatever is almost always worth it in the end.

[gt6267a]

This is great advice, even for those without kids. I'm sick of meeting friends at 9pm, because I'm tired and would rather be on my couch with a beer. I like eating dinner out at 5pm, because restaurants are too loud and crowded at 7pm. I would always prefer friends come to my house --I'll gladly supply the wine and beer and food-- so I don't have to drive home. But for me, setting these conditions would be seen as selfish and/or grouchy, since I have no kids.

I think the crux of the situation, from the no-kids perspective, is that all of our demands and conditions we set are personal choices, and they should all be given equal respect. As someone with no kids, what I push back on is the expectation that I should work around your schedule to the detriment of my own choices most of the time, simply to accommodate your choices to have kids. The implication is that the choice to have kids has a noble purpose greater than my own selfish interests, which I fundamentally disagree with. All of our life choices are worthy of equal respect. That's the view I operate on, and I've maintained good friendships with my parent friends who respect that view, and let the rest slide.

I posted to a person who asked about ways to spend time with friends that are missed. If they take a meal to their friend and have a nice evening, I think that would be a great result for both of them … and me for making such an amazing suggestion :). There’s a lot in this response which seems to come in from the side. For myself, I was a SINK for 40 years. Over the years I saw my friends have kids and their schedules / priorities changed. I didn’t harbor some great animosity towards them. They made a life choice and I supported that. Just like they respected my life choices at that time. Between us, I made some special choices which were probably hard to watch / support.

When my single friends fcuk up their lives and do stupid shit, do I tell them to fcuk off because I wouldn’t have done that? No, I buy them beverages. I offer them to stay in my guest room if needed. I remind them to go see a therapist because there was a reason why they picked the wrong mate and they should fix that shit before finding another loser.

Life isn’t an eye for an eye. If going over to your friend’s house more than your friend goes to your house is a wild sacrifice, take a look at that. When their kids are young, go over there more and when the kids can take care of themselves, say something like “yo, your turn to use my grill. I like lobster tail and nice wine.” If you are cool and actually friends, this isn’t hard.

[bcm119]

The friend social "drift" just naturally evolves. Maybe in the big picture, it's supposed to.

That's dismissive. The point many have been making is that the social "drift" shouldn't have to evolve so severely. But due to contemporary patterns of school districts, transportation, cost of living, job availability, etc, it's never been more difficult to maintain friendships between parents and non parents. And those practical challenges exacerbate the differences in priorities. I lament this. As a kid my parents had many non-parent friends who added a lot to my childhood. Same with my spouse. In major metro areas it's more difficult these days to have that dynamic, and it's too bad. This is an interesting topic and worth more of a discussion than a simple "it happens, move on".

Sorry if my posts were taken the wrong way. I'm a geographer and this stuff is interesting to me. Where many see generalizations or stereotypes, I see patterns. But perhaps the subject is taboo for a reason. Carry on.

[sk_tle]

I keep reading this on this thread but it doesn't compute in my mind. Are school in the suburbs really that better than those in the city centers ?

If so why ?

[Saab2000]

I keep reading this on this thread but it doesn't compute in my mind. Are school in the suburbs really that better than those in the city centers ?

If so why ?

Depends on the city and how many resources the various school districts are willing to allocate to the school system.

Where I currently live there is a definite difference in the various school districts. As it happens, the places with what are considered more desirable schools have higher local taxes to pay for this.

Without trying to get to political, desirable things in life cost money. Good schools get better teachers because the teachers want to go to places where the parents of the children are engaged and willing to be part of the process. That's not always the case in every school district. In my current situation the taxpayers have decided it's not as high a priority as the school district that starts a couple blocks away. The local taxes a couple blocks away are significantly higher and everyone knows it's because of the schools. The house I'm in where I currently reside (not much longer) would also probably be 40-50% more expensive in the more desirable school district. That's not an exaggeration. People are willing to move their family to get into better school districts for their kids. Both of my brothers did this when their kids were much younger.

[sk_tle]

OK understand it then.

Looks like a never ending loop then if kidless people don't want to pay tax to school, if they become parents they don't want a bad school then move somewhere else. That's some sort of modern self inflicted segregationism.

Still I'm not sure that the quality of teaching is proportionnaly related to how much money you put into the school. Aren't there teachers that want to live in a specific place and are willing to get a smaller salary for that ? Can't a kid be successfull in one of those less renowed school district ? How much of it is really factual ? When I got my first daughter I heard lots of "you should do this, you should do that, you will never be able to live like that" and all kind of bla bla bla bla bla most of it being totally false. Are people moving to suburbs because they are told those school districts are terrible the same way they buy SUV because people tell them they need to own a bigger car ? Hey my mazda2 is way enough car to carry two kids and stuff around comfortably. Would your nearby schools that bad for my kids ?

[monadnocky]

Looks like a never ending loop then if kidless people don't want to pay tax to school, if they become parents they don't want a bad school then move somewhere else. That's some sort of modern self inflicted segregationism.

Pretty off-topic for this thread but...

It's even worse than this in some areas. I live in a town that is known for having "the best [public] high school in the state." This is more of a mantra than a measurable reality, in my opinion, but for better or for worse, the town is associated with its high school (and this is no small matter in New Hampshire, where some of the "best" boarding schools in the country are located). The unrelenting pressure to keep the school "the best" has resulted in skyrocketing property taxes in the town - almost doubled in the past 10 years - and has driven a lot of middle-class folks out of town because they simply can't afford to live here. The result is that this town is becoming an increasingly concentrated nexus of extremely wealthy (and uniformly white) individuals who have no qualms about passing every resolution and proposal to keep the school "the best." By the way, this high school only has about 1,000 students (and this includes the middle school as well, I believe, housed in the same building).

It is absolutely self-inflicted segregationalism. I don't have kids and have no issue whatsoever paying my fair share for the social good (social contract and all). But would it really be the end of the world if we had the second best high school? The fifth? What difference does it make? We're paying almost 15k for one acre (we have 11, but ten are in current use) - where does this end?

[Matthew Strongin]

OK understand it then.

Looks like a never ending loop then if kidless people don't want to pay tax to school, if they become parents they don't want a bad school then move somewhere else. That's some sort of modern self inflicted segregationism.

Still I'm not sure that the quality of teaching is proportionnaly related to how much money you put into the school. Aren't there teachers that want to live in a specific place and are willing to get a smaller salary for that ? Can't a kid be successfull in one of those less renowed school district ? How much of it is really factual ? When I got my first daughter I heard lots of "you should do this, you should do that, you will never be able to live like that" and all kind of bla bla bla bla bla most of it being totally false. Are people moving to suburbs because they are told those school districts are terrible the same way they buy SUV because people tell them they need to own a bigger car ? Hey my mazda2 is way enough car to carry two kids and stuff around comfortably. Would your nearby schools that bad for my kids ?

There's a lot more to it than the draw of better teachers to better schools, which is absolutely a factor and exacerbated by a flawed system that often seeks to make the better schools the best possible even at the expense of the others. Add factors like the charter/magnet schools, student/teacher ratios, resources or facilities for extracurriculars, safety and the level of student-body (and parent) engagement and the gulf between the good schools and the bad schools is significant.

[Saab2000]

OK understand it then.

Looks like a never ending loop then if kidless people don't want to pay tax to school, if they become parents they don't want a bad school then move somewhere else. That's some sort of modern self inflicted segregationism.

This is certainly not true in my case. Relatively speaking, I’m a high income earner and pay more taxes. I’m 100% on board with paying for quality public education because it benefits all of us. I have no kids but I want my neighbor’s kids to be well educated.

When I bought my house I couldn’t afford what was appropriate for me as a single person within the boundaries of this school district.

[joosttx]

There's a lot more to it than the draw of better teachers to better schools, which is absolutely a factor and exacerbated by a flawed system that often seeks to make the better schools the best possible even at the expense of the others. Add factors like the charter/magnet schools, student/teacher ratios, resources or facilities for extracurriculars, safety and the level of student-body (and parent) engagement and the gulf between the good schools and the bad schools is significant.

We are in the best or one of the best school districts in the Bay Area. There are several reasons why, we spend over $2k per year in property taxes for our district schools, we donate more than $1M per year for school programs, teachers are supported and stay, parental involvement is off the charts. Make fun of Marin moms but the lunch line is full of Cal, Stanford, Wesley grads.

[Matthew Strongin]

We are in the best or one of the best school districts in the Bay Area. There are several reasons why, we spend over $2k per year in property taxes for our district schools, we donate more than $1M per year for school programs, teachers are supported and stay, parental involvement is off the charts. Make fun of Marin moms but the lunch line is full of Cal, Stanford, Wesley grads.

And I live in one of the worst, where my only real option is either private school or entering a lottery for a charter school that may be far enough away from my house to make it impossible for me to participate in my son's school. I still gladly pay taxes for the public schools in my district and would happily pay more if it helped make them good enough to be a solid option for us.