That dog won't heel

[deano]

Beloved 3-yo Bo-Man, whose gorgeous, snowy, official golden retriever portrait is in the pet gallery here, is an ever-living saint with small children, decent with other dogs, and a faithful friend. However, it's a major pain in the arse to walk with him. Been working on it one way or another from day one (none of which was apparently helpful), but I cannot get this d--- dog to heel. We did a season with the chest harness when he was little and he's a mighty sled dog with one now. We did a nose lead for a season, which my neighbor who occasionally keeps him when we're on vacation likes when she walks him; I found it's good, but he will still pull on it and doesn't get what we're trying to get him to do, which is walk beside us with no pulling. We have been doing the Sparger Prong collar for some time now. I don't know why I haven't quit with it because he's impervious to the pain of the prongs tightening. He truly just DGAF about it, still pulls, just can't do it as hard. It's what makes walks possible right now. A traditional collar and he would sled dog you to kingdom come.

I think the heart of the problem is this dog has the strongest prey drive I have ever seen in a dog. It's his loss I'm not a hunter. A robin 25 yards away. A squirrel anywhere. And walk's over. He might as well be a tiger shark.

He's been fun to walk off leash in the past, though I will say his radius around us is a lot bigger now than I would like, and way bigger than when he was a pup - that's the prey drive again. We go walking on a nearby golf course at night and he likes to fetch ... til he gets a scent. He's interactive and in contact with me, will look when called, will come when whistled at ... until we get to a spot where there's always a critter he's tracking. I am pretty sure it's a fox. Anyway.

On leash, I just need to be able to walk with the damn guy.

Any pointers? How can I get this guy to heel and not pull my arm out of its socket?

[thollandpe]

I feel your pain. The magnificent beast in the photo below was a puller for all of her 17 years. She seemed happy when pulling and choking and gasping for air. This actually got worse after a CCL injury and failed surgical repair, because with the back end lame she compensated by developing front-end dominance and huge shoulders (normally the Aussies have big strong hips). But off the leash she'd never wander far, quick with a verbal call-back.

One thing this dog had a healthy respect for was the invisible fence. She'd willingly take a zap if she was motivated enough, but the battery could die for months and she wouldn't challenge it. Have you considered the push-button version? A little backup for a verbal correction.

The other thing this dog hated was stepping over the leash and having it in her armpit. For that she would stop and wait for me to fix it.



As you can see, she was pretty good with fetching varmints, even at her advanced age, deafness, fading eyesight, etc.

Cheers, Tee Aitch.

[j44ke]

3 y.o. in Golden years is still puppy or at most teenager. And male Goldens are pretty notorious for being hammer head stubborn. It only looks like stupidity. Really it is just him testing you for eternity. Every inch you give up, even accidentally, is just encouragement to him. And there is no such thing as discouragement. If he isn't neutered that won't make things easier either. You can walk him with the leash looped around one of his front legs. That will keep him from pulling. Maybe. The trainer with the local police department when I worked in a humane shelter used to train their dogs to fix on an object - usually a squeaky toy - that would eventually come to replace squirrels, cats, etc. So the whole walk (or drug search actually in these dogs case) would become a task to perform in order to get some time with the object. You'll see this in fancy dog shows where the dog will behave immaculately in the ring and then go a little mental when the handler pulls the squeaky toy out of their pocket and tosses it to the dog. Anyway, the trainer would go over and over the whole squeaky toy thing until just the squeak would get the dog to sit and wait for whatever came next. Pretty amazing. But it took a lot of work.

[marley]

Gentle leader or Halti - Chewy dot com

[Too Tall]

Couple suggestions.
1. Train before feeding. Do not carry treats. Reward with verbal praise and a nose touch.
2. He does not get to walk forward unless it is at your side, don't be picky about how close. When he starts to pull or bolt, immediately stop, ask for a sit and give a ton of praise. Drop a ball, anything that's a huge endorphine release promotion "thing" other than food. The idea is that you are imprinting him to remain at your side when in motion and good things happen. When he is not doing that he sits and sitting sucks. This might be a one and done deal until he starts to get it. That's ok, it could take months but you are fighting a pattern he is pretty comfortable with. Do the training, quit and go play rinse and repeat. Do NOT train to failure. Train a little and quit.
3. Next up is prey drive. Oy, that's tough. Similar to above except you have him sit and you stand between him and the prey. Move if necessary and snap your fingers or clap your hands and say "OFF" the second his muzzle points to the prey. Reward verbally and a nose touch when his attention strays from the prey. Reverse course in your walk if necessary and walk fast, make positive sounds...engage him otherwise. This is not a one and done training.

Hang in there.

[chris7ed]

The way I was taught to use a choke chain collar. Hold leash in both hands with dog at side. As the dog moves ahead drop the leash from the hand close to the dog and yank. The dog begins to learn that when the leash is dropped a yank is on the way. The yank needs to be enough that the dog doesn't like it so pull hard now while training. It's mostly worked on my dog.

[Too Tall]

The way I was taught to use a choke chain collar. Hold leash in both hands with dog at side. As the dog moves ahead drop the leash from the hand close to the dog and yank. The dog begins to learn that when the leash is dropped a yank is on the way. The yank needs to be enough that the dog doesn't like it so pull hard now while training. It's mostly worked on my dog.

I would beat you for a week if I saw that happen. xxoo

[Chad]

I've heard great things about the Gentle Leaders. Never used one so no first hand experience. Not too pricey, worth a try if you haven't. This may be what you call a "nose leader".

When using the prong collar do you "pop" it or are you hoping the pressure of the prongs will do it? You need to pop it, not to hurt, it's an attention getter, a redirect. I start on the prong or "pinch" collars early, very effective.

Much like what Toots said, no more his way, your way. Change directions as well, a lot, he'll learn to take that direction from you. Not always a straight ahead sprint. Before you do that, get your OB dialed in.

Go back to basic OB (basic obedience). Here, sit and heel. Practice with no distractions, short sessions. Where there is no squirrel to chase, just your direction and praise. Not walking heel, just heel, when you are certain the dog understands the standard, move to walking heel. In house, in garage, in yard. Get those solid before going out in the neighborhood. Every bit of training you do with that dog is dependent upon OB, you're sunk without it.

Get a long leash, aka check cord. 30 ft or so. Let dog wander, call here, if he doesn't come, short tugs, not reeling him in. Praise, praise and more praise. High pitch feminine voice. You can then sit in front or at side. I like side first, more control. Command heel, direct dog to your whichever side you prefer. Repeat command throughout, until he is heeling. Praise again, lots, it's free, they love it, praise until your embarrassed, even when it's just you and the dog. Then command sit, when he sits praise praise praise, you get the picture.

Work on one command at a time, don't confuse him with the second until the first is solid.

Prey drive is hard to overcome, but far from impossible. My dog chases down birds all winter, she also knows what no or "no bird" means.

Sorry I rambled a bit. Good luck! Don't give up, you got this.

[monadnocky]

So here's the thing about any sort of choke collar system. From a behavioral science perspective , as with any operant conditioning scenario what you're essentially doing is positive punishment (positive = introduction of an aversive stimulus [the choke]; punishment = you hope to decrease the target behavior [not walking with you]). What all positive punishment scenarios have in common is that they tend to decrease all behavior, not just the target behavior (although, admittedly, it will decrease the target behavior more that the others, hopefully, if done exactly right). But, your human sensory system is not sensitive enough to detect exactly when to deliver the punishment, which is essential in positive punishment scenarios. And if you miss just once scenario, you've essentially negated much of the "training" you've done so far.

Positive punishment is just not an optimal way to train pretty much anything - dogs, children, what have you. And then there's the whole cruelty issue - I use that word mindfully and carefully - but I'm not even wading into that arena. It's just not an effective way to train dogs for family purposes.

TT has pretty sound advice above IMHO

[choke]

My Dad made a living training bird dogs for several years. I used to help him and when I was about 13 or so, one day he told me he had a customer who wanted his dog trained for 'yard work' and that he had volunteered me for the job. I ended up training several more after that, enough to buy my first car and motorcycle with cash.

The way that he taught me was to use a long rope, at least 20 feet. At the start of training the leash is held fairly tight with most of the slack taken up in the onside hand. The end of the rope is in the offside hand with the hand about 3 ft or so from the end. That loose end of the rope is twirled in front of your body, so if the dog tries to go forward he is hit in the nose with the spinning rope.

After a short time the dog gets used to being by your side and the twirling part can stop.

[choke]

Get a long leash, aka check cord. 30 ft or so. Let dog wander, call here, if he doesn't come, short tugs, not reeling him in.

Lots of good info in this post, though I'll throw an alternate way regarding this part. I would reel them in the whole way, constantly saying here. Whether they eventually came to me or I pulled the whole way there was lots of praise when the dog finally reached me.

[marley]

Gentle leader or Halti - Chewy dot com

This will allow you to walk now with some sanity. Good advice from all but go to see a trainer if you are serious.

[72gmc]

Yes, go to a trainer. We had to do this multiple times with Dot, the biggest knucklehead you'll ever find among Springer Spaniels (which could be, collectively, the biggest bunch of knuckleheads ever). It took a lot of work but she is the best walker I've had in a lifetime of dogs. Even at 12 she needs to burn off energy between naps, so we walk more than once a day.

[caleb]

My sincere best wishes with your training efforts, but from one golden owner to another, here's my recommendation for when you are ready to admit defeat: Omnijore™ Complete Joring System for Dogs | Ruffwear



The upsides are that the dog gets more exercise, and you have your hands free.

[ides1056]

I am glad to have had a heads up about this trend before encountering in person:

We Live in Packs - The New York Times

[jerk]

My Dad made a living training bird dogs for several years. I used to help him and when I was about 13 or so, one day he told me he had a customer who wanted his dog trained for 'yard work' and that he had volunteered me for the job. I ended up training several more after that, enough to buy my first car and motorcycle with cash.

The way that he taught me was to use a long rope, at least 20 feet. At the start of training the leash is held fairly tight with most of the slack taken up in the onside hand. The end of the rope is in the offside hand with the hand about 3 ft or so from the end. That loose end of the rope is twirled in front of your body, so if the dog tries to go forward he is hit in the nose with the spinning rope.

After a short time the dog gets used to being by your side and the twirling part can stop.

This. My post got lost- but I’d recommend getting this book: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Way-Trai.../dp/0679507507
I was introduced to this book by an old Hunter when I was having trouble training an untrainable (I thought) Springer Spaniel. He had the best hunting instincts of any dog I’ve ever known- but he wouldn’t heel and always pulled.
This book taught me more about men than it did about dogs- and it taught me everything I know about dogs.
It is literally in my top five favorite books of all time.
I was able to use these methods to not only train that Springer but also to turn a wild wolf into the sweetest dog ever, a neurotic cur hound into the calmest most content dog etc. Delmar’s methods are incredible. Please, please buy this book and follow its methods. It’s humane, kind, and you’ll learn more about https://www.amazon.com/Best-Way-Trai.../dp/0679507507

[giordana93]

lots of good info so far; the most important thing is being consistent. I will say that the easy walk harness seems to work better than the traditional one (attached on the back versions will encourage the sled dog instinct whereas attachment at front will turn them around to you when you yank) wasn't clear if you had tried sth. like that yet or not. but the main thing is that anyone who walks him has to do the same routine, whatever method you adopt

Easy Walk(R) Harness

[Chad]

lots of good info so far; the most important thing is being consistent. I will say that the easy walk harness seems to work better than the traditional one (attached on the back versions will encourage the sled dog instinct whereas attachment at front will turn them around to you when you yank) wasn't clear if you had tried sth. like that yet or not. but the main thing is that anyone who walks him has to do the same routine, whatever method you adopt

Easy Walk(R) Harness

Cant stress this enough.

[djg21]

Cant stress this enough.

I have always had Golden’s, and am on my third set. I have 3-year old female and 2-year old male currently. A pronged collar used correctly (not as a choker) can work well for discouraging pulling. I use an eCollar for obedience work. My female, who was the puller, responds to the vibration with no shock. She stops in her tracks, turns, and looks at me. She stays close even if off leash. My male is not a puller, and he generally stays close too. He likes to chase squirrels, rabbits and birds when off leash, and I have used the eCollar to deliver a small electrical buzz when necessary to keep him out of trouble. The eCollars are very effective if used correctly. If you get one, get some direction from a trainer who knows how to use them.

[Chad]

Regarding the consistency thing, my wife and kids have worked hard to untrain the OB I have trained. Bless their hearts.

I use an ecollar as well. Didn't go there earlier as some still see them as a torture device. An ecollar is an incredibly useful tool, in the hands of the right person. Truly no different than the swinging the leash in front of the pups face to discourage them from surging ahead, only you can do it from hundreds of yards away.

And yes, the buzz or tone feature is great.