When your friends all move to the 'burbs and become unresponsive...

[j44ke]

I used to tell nosey people that my wife and I had kids but we sold them. I was made to stop saying that by my wife. Evidently some (very stupid) people didn't understand that I was joking. Now when someone asks me if we have kids, I just say "Not that I know of."

About 10 years ago, our friends' kids started coming and visiting us in the city when they turned 17 years old. The first one who did this came with his girlfriend and she is now his wife and they have a 4 year old daughter. The best thing any of them do is listen to our advice and then go do what they've been planning on their own. Like move to Berlin or Malaysia. Which was actually sort of following our advice except for the Malaysia one. I think we suggested something boring like China. All of them are cooler than us and their parents combined.

My cousin's son came and visited us, then moved to LA and went to film school and married a stripper and they had a baby and she went into rehab and they got a divorce and he sued for custody and fortunately I gave him absolutely no advice except which lens to buy for his camera. He's a great dad though.

Seriously, having our friends' kids come visit on their own when they are old enough to be cool but still a bit knock-kneed about life is a real joy. I highly recommend it.


edit: All this reminds me of that Steve Martin movie "Parenthood". There are some great scenes in that.

[NYCfixie]

...I used to tell nosey people that my wife and I had kids but we sold them. I was made to stop saying that by my wife. Evidently some (very stupid) people didn't understand that I was joking. Now when someone asks me if we have kids, I just say "Not that I know of."

When those same rude and invasive people ask us...
- Why don't you have kids?
- Is there something wrong with one of you?

Or tell us...
- You are still young, maybe someday.
- It's never too late.


We usually just give it right back to them...
- My wife says I am shooting blanks.
- I say she has an inhospitable womb.


I am never rude enough to tell people that I think they are idiots for having kids so what gives them the right to judge me for not having kids?

[j44ke]

Well, I like kids and I like when my friends have kids, and I like when my friends who have kids bring them over and I can fill their kids up with candy and then send them home with their parents.

[NYCfixie]

Well, I like kids and I like when my friends have kids, and I like when my friends who have kids bring them over and I can fill their kids up with candy and then send them home to throw up on their parents.

Fixed it for you.

And, I do not dislike kids. I just do not want any of my own and my wife does not want them in our house/apartment (they are very messy and can't wipe their own butts for so many years).

[BBB]

I have a few perspectives to share.

I went to a University College for 4 of my 5 years of Uni and developed a close cohort of friends during that time. It was a big adjustment moving away from College at a time when friends were moving interstate for further study or work or overseas for the same reasons. In the intervening years, there has been marriages, kids, break ups, more moves, career advancement and other life changing events (and so on). While we are not all in the same state or even country anymore, and catch ups are rare, the friendships formed are generally the type where you can pick up where you left off six months ago, two years ago. It's not ideal, but it's life I suppose. I'll come back to this in a moment.

We have two kids. It is a life changing experience for the all the reasons and more others have described. This was our decision and I don't begrudge others for not making a similar choice. Each to their own. I think more understanding between those with kids and those without would sometimes go a long way. There's no right or wrong answer here, just an understanding and appreciation of the different perspectives involved.

As for friendships and kids, my perspective is slightly different. I eventually moved away from my home state for work and hence joined the exodus I described above. In time my friendship group (outside the College group described above) all pretty much had kids. Being interstate, catch ups became rare and involved a juggling act of work, relationships and children. In addition, I now cop a bit of grief for being away from home (so to speak). What started as a move for a few years has gradually turned into a permanent move. This hasn't gone down well in some circles, which is hard when there is 25 years plus of friendship in question. So, its not so much having kids or living in the 'burbs that is the issue, but moving away. Despite the challenges, these friendships are still on-going, valued and just require a bit more work.

[joosttx]

When those same rude and invasive people ask us...
- Why don't you have kids?
- Is there something wrong with one of you?

Or tell us...
- You are still young, maybe someday.
- It's never too late.


We usually just give it right back to them...
- My wife says I am shooting blanks.
- I say she has an inhospitable womb.


I am never rude enough to tell people that I think they are idiots for having kids so what gives them the right to judge me for not having kids?

You made the right decision.

[joosttx]

Two of most closest friends are married without kids. My sons Godfather never had kids (that he doesn’t know about). Us having kids have hurt my relationship with them. But part of life is knowing to let go and not take it personal. When I see them it’s fine we don’t talk about my kids too much. It’s more adding to the bathroom stupidity humor that we shared all our lives. Kids are great. They are a very easy way to give your life purpose and to sacarfice for something more than you. Maybe because I was raised Episcopalian I believe dedicating your life to something greater than you is the path to happiness . Kids make that pursuit pretty freaking easy. It harder to do this without kids. But those who do live the most amazing lives for which I am envious of until I again hang out with my kids (bc that is what I chosen). Life is about sacarfice and choosing to focus on something more important than you. Whatever that is one should be fulfilled from it.

[bironi]

This thread is personal.
This thread is not.
Let's get very personal: Shoes. Cycling Shoes.
I'm interested in the way people connect in their lives.
I don't give much of a sht about their feet.
So which thread might be locked first?
Put me in the ditch if I'm not riding straight.

[caleb]

Are you sure you still want to be friend with these people you're so actively judging? Maybe it's not them?

I think you're the second person to basically say some version of "it's not them, it's you." To some extent, I'm sure that's true.

Curious though, since so many here are educating the non-parents in parenthood, what obligations do parents have to existing friendships, the violation of which would rightly be judged negatively? Are there any at all? For example, does one need to generally keep commitments? Or respond to communication? If not, why does an exemption exist for parents and nobody else?

[caleb]

That's the problem with this assumption, though - kids-free people do not inherently have more time available. They have chosen to alot it elsewhere. Person A has children, which I understand is a huge amount of time-commitment. Person B has a full-time job (40h/week), hustles freelance in the evenings (20h/week) and coaches cyclists 5 mornings a week before work (20h/week). Person B has no kids. Person A and person B have both made their choices and neither commitment takes precedence over another, that's all I'm trying to say. For person B, "lots of other choices are taken off the table" too. But none of those details matter, because no ones time is worth more or less than anyone elses. If you choose to prioritize children then kudos, that's a really big life choice. But those who have chosen other paths may have similarly dedicated their time elsewhere.

I think the root of the tension between people with kids and people without kids is that I have never in my life met a parent that really thought parenting was just one choice among many good choices that should be afforded no more social/ethical/moral weight than saving the whales or serving on the local park board or learning a musical instrument. Maybe such parents exist, but I've never met them.

It seems pretty straightforward to me why non-parents chafe at treating childrearing as somehow more special than anything they do.

[randonneur]

For example, does one need to generally keep commitments? Or respond to communication? If not, why does an exemption exist for parents and nobody else?

Yes, yes and it doesn't. Friendship ebbs and flows, for sure. But if your 'friends' flake out on you regularly and don't respond to communications, drop them. It's not worth your time or heartache. Be flexible, sure, but don't be a doormat. I mean, stuff comes up unexpectedly when kids are < 2yrs, but even a busy parent can find the time to answer a text message, if they want to (hopefully in a somewhat timely and apologetic manner). If after a few years they decide to come around and try and reconnect, be forgiving and see where it leads. But if in the here and now they're not putting the effort in, you shouldn't either because that'll just lead to resentment. They're making their choice... Unfortunately, in the poorest, most indirect (perhaps not even conscious) way. And it sucks. I feel for you, I've had it happen to me. Move on.

[sk_tle]

Ultimately, I don't think this is about kids. It's just about competing commitments. I've certainly seen the same thing happen when a friend has a new partner. Or a sick relative. Or parents who are no longer independent. Or a new job. It's not necessarily about living in a place that is "urban" or "diverse" versus rural and less diverse - I've had friendships change when living in either environment. I hope others don't judge me for having children (although the term "breeder" feels a bit judgmental, acknowledging that it may not have been intended that way). I also hope they don't judge me for having a job that requires frequent nights and weekends, because that gets in the way of social interaction too. I do try to do my best to not judge friends for the decisions they make, understanding that only they can set their own priorities.

I've had friends drift nearer and further depending on life circumstances, and find that the good ones always drift back eventually.

Pretty much this.

Some people are difficult to maintain some relationship with because their job, or passion (say cycling) takes way too much room in in their calendar. It is not good or wrong, it is just life.

Also having kids is not a disease.It can feel as a storm when you get them and transition from kids-free to parents but once the dust settles in it is just another tempo with altered priorities.

[Chik]

I think you're the second person to basically say some version of "it's not them, it's you." To some extent, I'm sure that's true.

Curious though, since so many here are educating the non-parents in parenthood, what obligations do parents have to existing friendships, the violation of which would rightly be judged negatively? Are there any at all? For example, does one need to generally keep commitments? Or respond to communication? If not, why does an exemption exist for parents and nobody else?

It was predictable that this thread would become a let-me-tell-you-about-parenthood thread with the occasional comments from child-free militants hardened by retarded inquisitions by dim-witted, myopic parents. As I said on the first page, I think the parenthood thing is incidental in the general scheme of things, and I would like to think that the rest of that post addresses your questions, if indirectly.

[SteveP]

caleb,
ive read some of this stuff...
it's you, not them.

move on and find friends who are living yr lifestyle.
your old friends have moved on.

[m_b_b]

I think the root of the tension between people with kids and people without kids is that I have never in my life met a parent that really thought parenting was just one choice among many good choices that should be afforded no more social/ethical/moral weight than saving the whales or serving on the local park board or learning a musical instrument. Maybe such parents exist, but I've never met them.

Hi. My name's Matt. Nice to meet you.

It really is unfortunate that many parents act this way. And the questions about why someone doesn't have children are never appropriate. Particularly because they are usually laden with this type of moral judgement. It even happens now that I have kids - "Why don't you guys have a third?" "Are you going to try for a boy?" Frankly it's none of their business. I've also had other parents question the use of babysitters so that my wife and I can do things alone. Or so that we can go to work, others can't understand how we would ever choose our jobs over spending more time with our kids. Life is about balance.

Some people suck, and can't understand how others make different choices. I try not to be one of those people, and I try not to have them in my life. Unfortunately, it sounds like your friends might be having trouble seeing past their own lives at this point. Hopefully it's just a phase.

[NYCfixie]

I think the root of the tension between people with kids and people without kids is that I have never in my life met a parent that really thought parenting was just one choice among many good choices that should be afforded no more social/ethical/moral weight than saving the whales or serving on the local park board or learning a musical instrument. Maybe such parents exist, but I've never met them.

It seems pretty straightforward to me why non-parents chafe at treating childrearing as somehow more special than anything they do.

I think most people who have kids did it because they were supposed to meet some pre-conceived life-milestone and/or it was the easy choice because everyone else was doing it so they thought that was supposed to be what they should do. And unfortunately many people have kids should not because they are terrible parents. So many times people we have met over the years have said, "we never though not having kids was a choice". Making a decision to not have kids and going against the "norm" I believe to be the more difficult decision.

As for the higher purpose crap, having kids to overpopulate the world and mold them into your own image is filled with hubris and I do not buy it; its disingenuous. If you really want to serve a higher purpose, do not have kids and with all that extra time you could save the world. If you really want to be a parent, adopt a child who does not have parents.

Hi. My name's Matt. Nice to meet you.

It really is unfortunate that many parents act this way. And the questions about why someone doesn't have children are never appropriate. Particularly because they are usually laden with this type of moral judgement. It even happens now that I have kids - "Why don't you guys have a third?" "Are you going to try for a boy?" Frankly it's none of their business. I've also had other parents question the use of babysitters so that my wife and I can do things alone. Or so that we can go to work, others can't understand how we would ever choose our jobs over spending more time with our kids. Life is about balance.

Some people suck, and can't understand how others make different choices. I try not to be one of those people, and I try not to have them in my life. Unfortunately, it sounds like your friends might be having trouble seeing past their own lives at this point. Hopefully it's just a phase.

I agree in that having kids should not be used as a moral compass to show that parents lives have more purpose than those who do not have kids. I will not judge those with kids but do not judge me either because I chose not to have kids.. And when you are rushing off to soccer practice, horseback riding lessons, or mandarin class, know I will be relaxing on my couch, reading the newspaper, and spending time with my amazing wife and not being constantly interrupted by rugrats (or we may just be out for a bike ride).

[zank]

Thank you for reminding me to never go near the OT section.

[fortyfour]

@caleb: I once asked my grandfather why we lose friends and his response was direct: "We grow apart, Kris. It just happens."

What's to be done? Honestly: Find new friends without kids. Embrace the solo ride in the mean time.

If you value their friendship, then reach out to them occasionally to say hello. It's the thought that counts. They'll come round or they won't (their life choices have simply just plain taken up all their time and their priorities have shifted - it's no fault of theirs or yours).

And as Richard mentioned earlier, friendships ebb and flow, distance does grow but if they really truly were friends, that never ends.

[dogrange]

I have 3 kids. It's not really the kids that are fracturing my social life, its that everyone is getting crazier as they get older. Even more than that it is our jobs that take so much time, interfering with my biking and other social activities.

[Matthew Strongin]

Sorry to be harsh, but this thread is ridiculous, full of stereotypes, over generalizations and piss poor assumptions. People are people. Complex individuals that rarely fit into a predefined box. We all have our strengths and our failings. Wonderful people come in all shapes and sizes, some with kids and some without. The same goes for assholes. And some people, believe it or not, can be both wonderful and an asshole. If someone judges you for not having kids, eff'em. And if someone judges you for how you parent, eff them too.

As for friendships, or any relationships, the only person you can control is you. If your friends don't act as you'd like, you can either accept that you're growing apart and move on, change your expectations, or change your behavior to be more accommodating and understanding.

All this back and forth on who's judging who or how parents should behave is unbecoming. Again, sorry to be harsh.