Surface Plate Questions

[rauce]

So I've done two lugged frames now, one jigless and one with the help of a fairly simple 80/20 fixture. Any "alignment" has been with math, straight edges, angle finders and a generous amount of head scratching. I don't really have professional ambitions and I do this just because I like it and since I'm pretty broke these days I do it on a low budget.

I spotted a granite surface plate on a classifieds site that is being given away and is local to me. The catch is that it's pretty big, 50x60x10 mounted on a steel table and it's currently equipped with a granite gantry over the plate as well.

Do you think it's worth the time, effort and $ to get this thing in my garage? For those with experience moving something like this how much would it cost to get it on a truck, drive it for ~1hr and get it off with the proper equipment and expertise?

[mjbabcock]

Just pony up and buy a Bringhelli.

You'll thank me later.

[Eric Estlund]

Free? Go for it.

Truck rates will vary locally. Call around and get some quotes. Post on local Clist.

[Martin T]

I'd like to have that in my shop just because it would look so impressive. Bear in mind it weighs in the neighborhood of 3000lbs if my back of the envelope calcs are correct. Once you have it in your shop you'll need to some how fasten fixtures (say a BB post maybe) to it. 10" of granite is going to be challenging to drill through with out the proper equipment. Not saying it can't be done just something to think about. If I had the space for something like that and it was free nearby AND I knew I would not want to move it again for many many years I'd go get it. It won't be cheap to move. Here in Seattle I'd wager at least $500 and probably more from experience.

[rauce]

I'm definitely not going to be buying a pre-made jig of any sort unless it's practically free. The builders here who have tons of experience have convinced me that a good surface plate is more important than anything else.

I came up with 3200lbs just for the granite of the plate, not to mention the other piece roughly 50x12x6 and the steel bits too. I helped move a mill recently with a friend, got a guy with a flatbed for just over an hour for $100 but that was minimal driving and he didn't really have anything other than a winch and tie downs to help us with.

I've read that folks will drill a hole a few inches deep and then bond in a insert on these thicker plates, maybe that's the way to go?

[cicli polito]

free? And no cracks in the plate? Take it! Here is what I would do:

two trips, two loads. Contact a granite fabricator / stone jetting place and tell them your plans FIRST, i.e. How many holes and what size to get core drilled. Get a price. Contact a few riggers/roll-back drivers to get quotes. You're going to want to schedule this all so that the rigger comes to pick up the plate where it is now, drops it off at the granite fab place, they unload it and do the work, then the rigger drops the finished piece off at your shop.

The reason to contact the granite place first is they will more than likely offer a recommended trucking co that they work with, which will save you time and money. Also, 10" is a large depth to deal with, they will be far better equipped to take care of it.

A few hours south of you in Cleveland I'm guessing cost would be about $700 total. After working on a just under 3x4 plate for years, this year i bought a cast steel plate 80"x40"x9". The blanchard place picked it up where the plate sat, ground it, and delivered to my shop for $825 with the certs on board.

Good luck!

[11.4]

Dan has some particularly good advice here. There's no point in struggling with drilling or jetting holes yourself when someone who is equipped to handle a slab like this (including transporting it) is around to do it. If you're in a large industrial town, there are people who resurface and customize surface plates as well -- they regrind steel plates, plane granite ones, also regrind lathe ways and so on. They can cost a bit more but may have skill here you can use.

This is a big plate, but I've visited a lot of frame builders and yet to see one who says his plate is too big and seen countless ones who wished for a little more room. And you can do anything on a surface plate with some ingenuity. I watched Mario Confente build frames with a flat granite slab and some home-made elevation fixtures. I'm not a builder but I've put together a lot of precision machine shops and I'd say definitely to get it. It's worth the money you put into it. Plan it out well, even if that means having it brought to your shop first.

I don't think you mentioned actual size. Perhaps you can have the plate cut into two pieces and use what you get paid for one piece to cover the costs of cutting, customizing, and transport? That's if it's really too big for you. You might be able to cut down and re-weld the stand. Just throwing that out there.

[rauce]

Yeah that's good advice. Here's the actual ad, as long as you promise not to snipe it before I do!

Mitutoyo measuring machine | business, industrial | City of Toronto | Kijiji

[mjbabcock]

I'm definitely not going to be buying a pre-made jig of any sort unless it's practically free. The builders here who have tons of experience have convinced me that a good surface plate is more important than anything else.

Don't buy the jig, get the channel alignment fixture. If you factor in how many hours you're going to spend dicking around with a BB post, moving it in, moving it back out (maybe in pieces with a sledge...you're better off buying a fixture and focusing on building. You don't have the means to move 3200lbs of rock and every time you want to shift it in your shop you're going to realize it was a mistake.

MartinT has built thousands of frames and knows what he does and doesn't like at this point.

Don't waste your time.

[Doug Fattic]

I’m a builder that doesn’t like a plate to be too big. If you are aligning a frame opposite of the post (by the seat cluster) you don’t want to reach in to pull up or push down on the frame because it is more awkward. In my opinion 36” is about the maximum I’d want on the short length of the rectangle. 32” or 34” is more my ideal. More width (in other words the long length more than 48”) can be useful depending on where the post is located. Again consider how easy it is to reach beyond the edge of the table to work on a frame when you are on the sides.

When I ordered an alignment table in Ukraine I wasn’t sure what size they were able to make so I gave them a range. They made me the biggest size and I have always wished it was a little smaller so I didn’t have to reach in as much. The good news is that I could C clamp a bench vise on the long end so the extra length didn’t go entirely to waste.

In completely other news, I am aware of a nice granite table used to build frames with a bottom Bracket post already attached for only $500. It belonged to a framebuilder that has passed. It is located outside of New York City in New Jersey near I-80. Right now it is being stored in a warehouse that has a fork lift that can put it in the back of a pick up truck. I am not positive of the size but I believe it is 3’ X 4’ and weighs around 1000lbs. Contact me if you are interested how to get ahold of the seller.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[EricKeller]

virtually nobody drills through a granite plate that big. Drill a hole,fill it with epoxy and put in an insert. Get a post made that will bolt up to one of the inserts. I could have a granite plate that's approximately 40x60x10, and it seems like a lot of work to deal with. And humping that around until you get rid of it will be a chore.

[Dallas Tex]

I've got an extra bringheli channel steel plate. You'd have to provide your own BB post. PM if you want it. Save yourself the incredible overkill of getting a 3,000 pound chunk of granite.

[rauce]

I heard back from them, sounds like these folks moved in to an industrial space and this was left behind. They said they can get it on a truck for me with their equipment. I hit up my machinist friend and he says this thing has threaded inserts in it already that I can re-purpose so I'll probably get this thing.

If it doesn't work out I'll hit you up for that Bringheli plate Daltex.

[Eric Estlund]

There is a similarly sized plate that I am inheriting with my new shop space (legacy inspection room for an old brass factory). My plan with it is to set it up for measurement off the surface- no whipping post and using the HT as the starting point. This is in addition to the BB post steel plate I've been using for a number of years. If you haven't seen this thing in person be prepared- it's big (and heavy). Odds are good you can move it with a heavy duty pallet jack once you get it unloaded. Be sure to have a plan for that before its sitting in a flatbed on your street.

[Martin T]

So Ross, did you end up getting the plate? I'd like to see some more pictures of it if you did. Big surface plates are cool. In my short stint at Boeings years back I'd spend my lunch breaks wandering around the plant and would often come across huge pink granite Starrett plates that had not been used for their intended purpose for years. Lots of those were sold cheap at Boeing Surplus, but they were way too big for my purposes.

[rauce]

I looked at it today, confirmed the measurements and measured the height of the loading dock. It's in good shape as far as I can tell, there are a few chips around the edges but I assume that's not an issue. There's quite an assortment of threaded steel inserts bonded in. The bolts used to hold the rail(?) that the probe would have traveled on are quite large so whatever is under there should work just fine for a BB post.

I need to call around and figure out how to get it home. Getting it on will be "easy" the question is how to get it off the truck and onto my driveway.

[incepi]

I looked at it today, confirmed the measurements and measured the height of the loading dock. It's in good shape as far as I can tell, there are a few chips around the edges but I assume that's not an issue. There's quite an assortment of threaded steel inserts bonded in. The bolts used to hold the rail(?) that the probe would have traveled on are quite large so whatever is under there should work just fine for a BB post.

I need to call around and figure out how to get it home. Getting it on will be "easy" the question is how to get it off the truck and onto my driveway.

I had a Bridgeport vertical mill delivered a few years ago. It was transported by a tilt bed tow truck. Cost less than $200 to deliver to my garage. The bed was tilted so the end was on my garage floor slab, and the machine was lowered my winch. Once on the slab, the machine was lifted with a crowbar, and rollers(steel bars or pipes) placed under it. Two people easily 'walked' it into place with a crowbar and rollers. Yo
I had a Bridgeport vertical mill delivered a few years ago. It was transported by a tilt bed tow truck. Cost less than $200 to deliver to my garage. The bed was tilted so the end was on my garage floor slab, and the machine was lowered my winch. Once on the slab, the machine was lifted with a crowbar, and rollers(steel bars or pipes) placed under it. Two people easily 'walked' it into place with a crowbar and rollers. You may have to buy or construct a pallet that can handle the weight, since the granite slab is supported by a table with feet.

Contact a local seller of new or used machine shop equipment. They can advise you.

[Edg]

For what its worth, you can find a very useable surface plate, for frame building at any rate, in a sheet of artificial stone used for kitchen bench tops... the polished stuff is remarkably accurate, and a piece of 900x700mm won't cost you much, if at all. I have a sheet which was given to me, easy to drill for the BB post, I can lift and move about, easy, job done... thank you Keith @kumocycles.

Ed Garnett

[jclay]

For what its worth, you can find a very useable surface plate, for frame building at any rate, in a sheet of artificial stone used for kitchen bench tops... the polished stuff is remarkably accurate, and a piece of 900x700mm won't cost you much, if at all. I have a sheet which was given to me, easy to drill for the BB post, I can lift and move about, easy, job done... thank you Keith @kumocycles.

Ed Garnett

The Mitutoyo giant you're considering is neat but the option Ed mentioned is sound and might be much easier to live with. Natural granite countertop cut-offs (free/cheap) as well as 3'x4'x4" granite plates from Enco and the like (I think mine was ~$400 plus shipping) might be worth considering.

If humidity wasn't the monster it is here, I'd prefer a flat ground steel plate for the ease with which holes could be drilled for attachments though that would be more expensive I think.

You're right on about the relative importance of surface plate to frame fixture.

Good luck with the shop upgrade regardless. Aside from being useful, the Mitutoyo certainly would be quite the conversation piece.

[Doug Fattic]

I had a Bridgeport vertical mill delivered a few years ago. It was transported by a tilt bed tow truck. Cost less than $200 to deliver to my garage. The bed was tilted so the end was on my garage floor slab, and the machine was lowered my winch. Once on the slab, the machine was lifted with a crowbar, and rollers(steel bars or pipes) placed under it. Two people easily 'walked' it into place with a crowbar and rollers. Yo

I had my Bridgeport unloaded from a delivery truck and moved to position in the shop using the same system as Eric. The tow truck guy charged me $50 if i remember right. He used straps to connect the mill to his hook. worked fine.