Viability of Full Electric Cars

[MarkC]

Was going to append this to the VW thread but perhaps of general interest.

Info: Was talking to a pal who does a lot of environmental compliance work about the VW story. He commented that it didn't really matter in the larger picture and that moving from burning gas / diesel in large numbers would be much better. He proposes there are better ways to make electricity and that most people could get on well with full electric cars. Commented that I would go full electric now if it made sense. Meaning range over 100 miles per charge as I drive 70 miles round trip to work each day, car has to be somewhat appealing (not a Prius) and cost can't be in the Tesla range. I would go 40-50K USD if convinced the vehicle made sense environmentally and would last at least ten years.

Question:

What do guys with knowledge in this space think about the next generation of fully electric cars and total carbon footprint? Compared to say a decently efficient gas car like the Mazda 3 where we routinely get 40+ MPG out of a 25,000 dollar car.

Full electric ready now as viable daily driver or still a generation or two or three away from being solid?

Pluses and minuses overall other than needing to charge and being limited by range?

Something like a Lotus Elise that gets 100-150 miles to a charge would be ideal for me as I don't need passenger or cargo space and having something a bit cool, a bit fun, would work. But that two seater form factor is probably not viable. Something in a hatchback form the size of a Golf with 150 mile range. The BMW i3 is perhaps close today. Sister has one, it seems to work.

-Mark

[SteveP]

See if tesla can come up w the 40k model that they talk about.

Could not produce enough.

[rmplum]

I've been driving a VW eGolf for about 10 days now. I like it a lot - but my commute (max of ten miles if I have to take the kids to school) makes it pretty easy for me to live with as a M-F type car (I can also charge it at work if I need to). It's just as nice to drive as any other Golf VII and the acceleration is smooth and effortless. With any sort of extended highway driving the real world range is probably 70-80 miles - it really does change how you drive though. I'm happy sitting in the right lane at 70mph in this thing. The controls and displays are awesomely normal.

Until someone here takes the keys from me, I'm keeping it. Not going to gas stations is awesome.

[Matthew Strongin]

I've been driving a VW eGolf for about 10 days now. I like it a lot - but my commute (max of ten miles if I have to take the kids to school) makes it pretty easy for me to live with as a M-F type car (I can also charge it at work if I need to). It's just as nice to drive as any other Golf VII and the acceleration is smooth and effortless. With any sort of extended highway driving the real world range is probably 70-80 miles - it really does change how you drive though. I'm happy sitting in the right lane at 70mph in this thing. The controls and displays are awesomely normal.

Until someone here takes the keys from me, I'm keeping it. Not going to gas stations is awesome.

This is what keeps me from going for a full electric. I'd be very interested in one, but in a city like Miami there's just too much "long-distance" driving for a range that small. My commute is just over 70 miles round trip. Throw in an errand or going out to lunch and that's cutting it too close before running out of juice.

[deboat]

This could be an interesting thread.

The company I work for make Ebikes. But these are purely for performance and not much thought goes into the MPC (Miles per charge). There is a supermoto style bike that would be great fun to commute to work. I can hear an ebike being ridden around the street outside right now by the R&D team. The problem is that one battery lasts about 45min. A fast recharge takes about two hours.
The deal is to buy the bike and lease the batteries. So that as battery tech grows, the customer is as an example getting replacement batteries every few years.
Currently the ECU updates are free. And the changes are like to the different drive settings.
Services to the bike must be done by a high voltage mechanic. If you are a car mechanic now, my tip would be to make a couse to become qualified in HV. You will then for work become future proof.

[sk_tle]

I drive 70 miles round trip to work each day

[...] I don't need passenger or cargo space and having something a bit cool, a bit fun, would work.

I know it doesn't answer your question exactly but frankly, you should just use your bike to commute to work more often.

That's what I do, bicycle and public transportation during the week. I only use my car to carry the whole family or do longish distance. I could have bought an EV if I could do 300km a day without charging when I bought my car in 2010. Now I'm in the mindset that replacing my car would not me environmentally friendlier as I do very low mileage bar a few long trip once in a while (which require a long range) and during cross season. I'll just keep the same car as long as I can. How much ? 5, 10 ,20 years ? No idea. It will depend on reliability (japanese car) and laws (can't say we won't be forced to surrender old cars on day).

I even decided to travel as much as I can to cx races this fall by car sharing or railway. We have the chance here in Switzerland to have a great railway network so I will never have a station further than 10km from a race. I'll have to give up pit wheels and warm up on the trainer if I can't share the car but I can accept it. I just find it just too stupid to drive a 1ton tank to carry only myself and my bike gear.

[TTX1]

I'd like to read up on the impact of moving 20-30% or more of commuters to the grid, to better understand the impact on coal based electricity, as well as secondary issues such as battery recyclability vs. traditional cars at 5 and 10 years.

That said, the most in demand parking spots at my office are the designated charging stations.

There are at least 6-8 Teslas, 3 of the new e-BMW, and more Prii than I can count without conducting a proper census.

One of my neighbors has the Chevy Volt - parked and plugged outdoors, year-round.

Change is coming... however I don't have a clear sense of the overall benefit...

[sk_tle]

The Renault Twizy looks to be a commercial success here in europe :



People don't use them for long trips but more as a substitute to a moped/scooter which can be a major pita in the cold/rain. They park them in motorcycles parking lots, not sure if it is legal but I haven't seen one get a ticket. Max speed is 50mph, range only 60mi.

[PJN]

Electric car tail pipe:

[David Tollefson]

This could be an interesting thread.

The company I work for make Ebikes. But these are purely for performance and not much thought goes into the MPC (Miles per charge). There is a supermoto style bike that would be great fun to commute to work. I can hear an ebike being ridden around the street outside right now by the R&D team. The problem is that one battery lasts about 45min. A fast recharge takes about two hours....

There's this: Lightning

They're claiming a 30-minute turn-around on a "fast charger". 100 mile range at "highway speed". And, uh, yeah, $39K price tag...

[MarkC]

you should just use your bike to commute to work more often.

Not possible or remotely practical here with my situations. Good news is my wife just went from 80 miles round trip daily to 5 so that helps. She's the perfect use case for a golf cart or one of the small, limited range eVehicles. We're considering that but the $$$ don't work right now since none of the current cars need replacing. But thinking harder about it.

[Jonathan]

My family has a farm in NC and as we speak a solar plant is going up on a portion of the land. From my understanding the cost per MW is now competitive or a little lower than coal. It's a different world than 18 months ago and will be different in 18 months from now. The capital behind the partnership that is leasing the land is from some interesting big name sources who have no shortage of places to invest capital.

[Saab2000]

I know it doesn't answer your question exactly but frankly, you should just use your bike to commute to work more often.

That's what I do, bicycle and public transportation during the week. I only use my car to carry the whole family or do longish distance. I could have bought an EV if I could do 300km a day without charging when I bought my car in 2010. Now I'm in the mindset that replacing my car would not me environmentally friendlier as I do very low mileage bar a few long trip once in a while (which require a long range) and during cross season. I'll just keep the same car as long as I can. How much ? 5, 10 ,20 years ? No idea. It will depend on reliability (japanese car) and laws (can't say we won't be forced to surrender old cars on day).

I even decided to travel as much as I can to cx races this fall by car sharing or railway. We have the chance here in Switzerland to have a great railway network so I will never have a station further than 10km from a race. I'll have to give up pit wheels and warm up on the trainer if I can't share the car but I can accept it. I just find it just too stupid to drive a 1ton tank to carry only myself and my bike gear.

The infrastructure in the US simply doesn't allow most people to do this most of the time. Switzerland is uniquely good in this regard and the US is uniquely bad in many places in this regard.

When I lived in Lugano I walked to the airport and drove my car every two weeks, if that. Walking to my airport now is not an option, nor is riding a bike and public transportation to the airport is non-existent where I currently work.

A friend of mine used to ride his bike from Bassersdorf to Kloten to take his Airbus A330 all over the world. Switzerland has bike parking at the airport. Many US airports have access to the terminal ONLY from roads restricted to automotive traffic. I'm not saying it's good, but it's the way it is.

There are places where public transportation is somewhat viable, but when I lived near Zurich and worked at that airport, my shifts started too early for me to take the train to work and I wasn't riding 25 km on dark roads and paths at 0430.

Riding a bike to work in the US is simply not realistic for most people most of the time.

[BShow]

Not possible or remotely practical here with my situations. Good news is my wife just went from 80 miles round trip daily to 5 so that helps. She's the perfect use case for a golf cart or one of the small, limited range eVehicles. We're considering that but the $$$ don't work right now since none of the current cars need replacing. But thinking harder about it.

Same. I'd love to commute on my bike, but that's 70 miles a day on my bike. Could I do it? Yeah. But that would cut my time spent with my family during the week by a third, and I'd be a vegetable for the remaining 2/3 of it. Never mind the inability to get home in an emergency or risking my life battling automotive traffic in a suburban setting.

The E-cars dont make a ton of sense for my commute either. My wife could do it, so maybe we'll look at them when the time comes in a few years. But at the moment I'm in no hurry to pick any of these things up. Also, most of these things look like isht. I want them to look "normal" I dont need to broadcast to everyone that my car doesnt have an internal combustion motor.

[XR2]

Electric car tail pipe:

That's an unfair comparison. In reality it's a lot easier to police a large single point of pollution than 300,000 various points. Power generating facilities are far from clean however they're cleaner than millions of cars.

BTW coal isn't the only way it's made. Numbers for 2014.


Coal = 39%
Natural gas = 27%
Nuclear = 19%
Hydropower = 6%
Other renewables = 7%
Biomass = 1.7%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Solar = 0.4%
Wind = 4.4%
Petroleum = 1%
Other gases < 1%


If you really want to be "green" don't reproduce.

[davids]

I know it doesn't answer your question exactly but frankly, you should just use your bike to commute to work more often.

This is not an option for large portions of the US. I, personally, am fortunate to have convenient public transportation nearly at my doorstep. And that's what I use for commuting most of the time. I'll occasionally bike, but the commute isn't very pleasant. I drive to work maybe once a year. But most of my fellow countrymen don't have my good fortune.

I still find the range limitations of full electric cars to be a barrier. Even though the vast majority of my trips are within a reasonable recharge range (50-70 miles) I would hate to sacrifice the ability to take a round-trip day-trip from, say, Boston to Northampton. That's 200 miles. And then there's the times I want to drive from Boston to Rochester, or DC. I need either 500 mile range or the ability to replenish my energy supply in ten minutes.

Even as my second car, I'd hate to have the current range limits. The limits would be more manageable, but still...

I find something like the Chevy Volt a really attractive solution. Mostly electric, but with the security of a tank of gasoline to get you home from a longer excursion.

The progress being made here is really exciting, and I'm sure my requirements will be addressed before too long.

[XR2]

I've been riding a motorcycle for all my driving life. Not exclusively but the majority of when I use personal transport. Much smaller footprint and I don't buy new every few years-I keep 'em. I'd purchase an electric if/when the battery tech improved 15-20% from where it is now. Technology stagnated for decades because of demand,or lack of it.

Jay Leno has a Baker electric car. A beautiful piece of work. The battery charge lasts..........oh 100 miles. The original batteries were rebuildable thus cleaner than recycling is today. Electric is a viable option with some kinks to work out.

[David Tollefson]

Jay Leno has a Baker electric car. A beautiful piece of work. The battery charge lasts..........oh 100 miles. The original batteries were rebuildable thus cleaner than recycling is today. Electric is a viable option with some kinks to work out.

The ancestor of the Smart Car...

[Zimmermanbicycle]

We have two Priuses at the moment,one that I bought new in 2004 and a 2010, and for our situation in Los Angeles traffic they work well,not interesting but very capable,I love them like I love my fridge,they do the job very well,cost nothing to run ,not just fuel costs but with regenerative braking the brakes last upwards of 60,000 miles in city traffic and tires last nearly forever.
my average MPH on the 2010 is 24mph and that includes tons of road trips to NM and northern California at 75-80mph which begs the question,how interesting does it need to be for LA traffic?
When we replace the older Prius it will be with an electric car as my wife mostly works from home and I'm often only driving under 40 miles in a day,we are looking at leasing the BMW i3,its a hoot to drive and with the range extender its more than adequate for us.
Friends with Volts seem to love them and the new one looks interesting.
For fun I've got a '73 volvo 1800es and a BMW R69s for getting around comfortably and economically for now it's a Prius until it's a full electric.
-Eric

[EliottS]

That's an unfair comparison. In reality it's a lot easier to police a large single point of pollution than 300,000 various points. Power generating facilities are far from clean however they're cleaner than millions of cars.

BTW coal isn't the only way it's made. Numbers for 2014.


Coal = 39%
Natural gas = 27%
Nuclear = 19%
Hydropower = 6%
Other renewables = 7%
Biomass = 1.7%
Geothermal = 0.4%
Solar = 0.4%
Wind = 4.4%
Petroleum = 1%
Other gases < 1%


If you really want to be "green" don't reproduce.

While that photo might be kind of harsh, I still think taking into consideration where your electricity comes from is worth while. I'd say one of the big selling points of electric cars right now is the "green," aspect. I think that, and the sourcing of the materials for battery production are the less than ideal aspects.

On the plus side, it seems like long term battery life is a lot better than I had thought before looking into it just now.

All that said, electric cars are on my radar now that I am just starting to think about buying a new car. Now that there is a network of charging locations all down the west coast, it certainly could be a viable option over here.