Automobiles

[jitahs]

Ah, Elon has thoughtfully answered your questions and many you haven't thought about:

Your Questions Answered | Tesla Motors

[nahtnoj]

You're right, a house with an extension cord is...UNTHINKABLE!

My house was built in 1742, has no garage/driveway, and is on a street that is slightly less than the width of my UZJ100 (not including sidewalks, which is how I'm able to drive down the street) so no street parking. I'd need a 100 foot extension cord, a reserved street parking space (on a street I don't live on, which violates the rules for such things, even for handicapped persons), and a healthy dollop of trust that no one is going to unplug me.

Admittedly, not everyone in America lives in a pre-Revolutionary village that has later been subsumed by a major city. But, 25% and climbing live in multi-family housing, and only 65% own their home.

Census data suggests home charging is a pretty major obstacle for about a 1/3 of the US population, particularly those who live in cities, that would otherwise be the most logical EV customer.

[caleb]

the JSW is pretty much the only show in town for a not super expensive car based wagon.

Yeah, that's pretty much why it's the only thing on my radar right now. I'd like to spring for an XC70, but my inner cheap bastard won't let me.

As an aside, have you ever found that there's a somewhat consistent demographic that cannot wrap their heads around why a person would want a wagon when they could have an SUV? I start to try to explain myself - "I have nightmares about ferrying kids to the mall on Saturdays in a Honda Pilot somewhere deep in suburban hell" - but then I realize that would be insulting and instead smile and nod while they extoll the virtues of their Nissan Mirano, especially how the four wheel drive is perfect for patchy ice.

Talking to people about cars over the past week has convinced me that car companies are doing exactly the right thing by refusing to bring their wagons to the US. There really isn't much of a market.

[JoB]

We test drove a 2012 Jetta Sportswagen TDI in February (Dealer model with 3k miles). Overall, it was roomy enough, nice enough, and drove well enough, but it was pretty loud, even w/out the sun roof which made things much worse. The electronics seemed a bit outdated (I don't think it had bluetooth) and we were worried about follow-up maintenance that would take the car out of commission too often. Add in the extra cost for the car, the price of diesel, the increased amount and cost of oil changes, and the fact that we aren't that close to a VW dealer, we ended up buying a Mazda 3 hatchback instead. It's been a good little car thus far although much smaller.

So, I started this thread three and a half years ago because I thought my old car would soon die. It didn't. Until this Saturday, I was still driving it. It made it 342,000 miles without ever having the engine or transmission touched. The other repairs have just gotten to be too much though, and I picked up a rental for this week while I shop for a new car.

I'm looking at lightly used VW Jetta Sportwagens (1-3 years old, 25k or so on the clock). Anyone have any experience with them? I'm looking at both the TDI and the gasser.

What I've read is that they're comfortable and reliable, but repairs can get expensive, especially at the VW dealer. I have never taken a car to the dealer for maintenance in my life, so the dealer premium is a nonissue in my case. Anything else I should know?

If the VW is a bad idea, I might just have to pick up an Abarth.

[sailor]

If you value the driving experience more than mpgs I would cross shop the used higher-end cars (BMW 3/5 and Audi A4/A6) as well, they don't cost much more than the VW upfront, but may cost more in the shop.

[jitahs]

My house was built in 1742, has no garage/driveway, and is on a street that is slightly less than the width of my UZJ100 (not including sidewalks, which is how I'm able to drive down the street) so no street parking. I'd need a 100 foot extension cord, a reserved street parking space (on a street I don't live on, which violates the rules for such things, even for handicapped persons), and a healthy dollop of trust that no one is going to unplug me.

Admittedly, not everyone in America lives in a pre-Revolutionary village that has later been subsumed by a major city. But, 25% and climbing live in multi-family housing, and only 65% own their home.

Census data suggests home charging is a pretty major obstacle for about a 1/3 of the US population, particularly those who live in cities, that would otherwise be the most logical EV customer.

That leaves a mere 250 million potential ev users then and you aren't one of them.

I'm not sure what your point is:

you won't buy a $132k car due to where you live?
no one should even pull up a charge station map to see if it will work for them?
you just hate evs and don't want to see them?

Those who live in crowded cities can use a car share service, since car ownership is often a liability there. Multi-family house in the city? Perfect, have one car to trade off, use public transportation/car share the rest of the time. City Car Share here has EVs - perfect for the right person. But in reality, income is the biggest barrier to car ownership of any kind, urban, sub- or ex-urban.

As soon as Elon gets the 85d to snowy climes, watch the fast charging stations explode. I can see Panamera owners in CT foaming at the mouth from here.

The ICE, as much as we love them, are the horse-and-buggy of our era. The only fossil fuels to be produced in the future would have to come from our rotting corpses b/c we ate all the other organisms on our dear blue globe. So yeah, it's a no-brainer - electricity through renewable resources for the slog, fossil incinerator for weekend knuckle dragging.

[davids]

You're right, a house with an extension cord is...UNTHINKABLE!

A house with an extension cord doesn't get me from Boston to Philly in five hours.

That leaves a mere 250 million potential ev users then and you aren't one of them.

I'm not sure what your point is:

you won't buy a $132k car due to where you live?
no one should even pull up a charge station map to see if it will work for them?
you just hate evs and don't want to see them?

Those who live in crowded cities can use a car share service, since car ownership is often a liability there. Multi-family house in the city? Perfect, have one car to trade off, use public transportation/car share the rest of the time. City Car Share here has EVs - perfect for the right person. But in reality, income is the biggest barrier to car ownership of any kind, urban, sub- or ex-urban.

As soon as Elon gets the 85d to snowy climes, watch the fast charging stations explode. I can see Panamera owners in CT foaming at the mouth from here.

The ICE, as much as we love them, are the horse-and-buggy of our era. The only fossil fuels to be produced in the future would have to come from our rotting corpses b/c we ate all the other organisms on our dear blue globe. So yeah, it's a no-brainer - electricity through renewable resources for the slog, fossil incinerator for weekend knuckle dragging.

Speaking as a guy who lives in a multi-family urban home (and is fortunate enough to have a driveway), it's not there yet. Until there's an urban runabout that can hold two bikes, travel 100 miles between charges, and costs $20k, I'm not replacing my Fit. And until there's a smallish sedan that can go 400 miles and then be recharged in less than twenty minutes I'm not giving up my TSX.

An $85k car will never result in an explosion of fast-charging stations. Tesla's doing great, interesting stuff, but it's not reached the point where an electric vehicle works as well as an ICE.

[seanile]

dis whip
2015 Volvo V60 T6 R-Design: The Jalopnik Review

[jitahs]

A house with an extension cord doesn't get me from Boston to Philly in five hours.



Speaking as a guy who lives in a multi-family urban home (and is fortunate enough to have a driveway), it's not there yet. Until there's an urban runabout that can hold two bikes, travel 100 miles between charges, and costs $20k, I'm not replacing my Fit. And until there's a smallish sedan that can go 400 miles and then be recharged in less than twenty minutes I'm not giving up my TSX.

An $85k car will never result in an explosion of fast-charging stations. Tesla's doing great, interesting stuff, but it's not reached the point where an electric vehicle works as well as an ICE.

News flash - other folks make electric cars which work for a lot of people. Weird!


Rather than pick this apart point-by-point, if it doesn't work for you fine, I don't really care. Anyone with the funds, the need, the smarts and a conscience will do the math and balance pros and cons. It's not for lazy people and for the non-forward-thinking but hey.

Ha! You too are correct - charging stations will not explode due to the Tesla halo effect. I'll laugh at that next time I can't find a nice parking spot due to the proliferation of charging stations occupying prime real estate. What, they're special or somethin'?

[jitahs]

dis whip
2015 Volvo V60 T6 R-Design: The Jalopnik Review

Are Volvo still building under-chassis-ed turbo vehicles or did they fix that?

My friend's XC60 simultaneously rides and handles like a Tacoma - how'd they do that?

[Jason Musgrave]

snipped: and a conscience will do the math

What does having a conscience have to do with this? Anyone picking a vehicle to buy based on their conscience will likely buy a used econobox - something that the environmental impact costs have already been paid on. Reduce, reuse, and recycle and all that...

[jitahs]

What does having a conscience have to do with this? Anyone picking a vehicle to buy based on their conscience will likely buy a used econobox - something that the environmental impact costs have already been paid on. Reduce, reuse, and recycle and all that...

That's the simplistic argument. EI is about the entire energy cycle - mining, mfg., fuel origination, tail pipe emissions and length of service.

Plus, you didn't read my previous posts on this. Shame on you. Doesn't anyone have a search button, 'cos I do.

Since I have a little bit o' time while the bread bakes...

The potential of a well-built e-car to outlast an ICE is substantial due to many fewer moving parts. They are essentially modular, there's an e-tranny but you're looking primary at suspension components and tires as your wear items. Compared to the mandatory $2k for every German car pecadillo, it's nothing. There's a Leaf on craigslist for $13k, 40k miles I'm thinking about picking up just for the hell of it, only I don't need it, for those reasons. Forever car for short-ish trips. If Nissan chooses to uprate the batteries in the future, silver lining.

The decision to purchase a car is often times entirely cloaked in emotion and economics, so be it. Anyone in the market for a car now who can make an e-car work but chooses not to may be typing on the internet all kinds of excuses, but ultimately it comes down to one of the two above, besides...

Range. It will come. It's here, 400 miles on a Tesla Roadster. Give it a few more minutes to trickle down.

Emissions - they're a huge thing. Today is the 25th anniversary of the Loma Prieta earthquake which brought down a couple of freeways. Unsurprisingly, the health of the people living in its wake improved, but surprisingly the health hit their parents-grandparents-etc. took lives on in their offspring generations later. So the city is planting thousands, yes thousands, of trees to filter much existing pollution out. It'd be pretty easy to nip that kind of thing in the bud. Don't think that it happens only in the low-rent districts either. Old v8s will still exist, don't worry.

Additionally a used car will necessarily emit much more from its tail pipe than a new car of any sort, let alone electric. There's no tail pipe to put your mouth around to test. Kinda mind blowing. Now trucks and SUVs are an entirely different subject but primarily they aren't regulated nearly as strictly due to a host of stupid decisions, which directly impact much of the earth's climate. Because we were taught v8s were good through American Graffiti but those cars were slow and now we live in a world where rolling coal is bad ass and a Miata is a girl/gay car due to too much pop culture consumption even though it'll run a sub-8 minute Nordschleife. We are a piece of work.

Bread's smelling nice.

[bertiewhang]

Electric cars may have less moving parts but replacing the cells is far from cheap.
As stated before they still have a long way to go before they are practical for most people.

[jitahs]

Electric cars may have less moving parts but replacing the cells is far from cheap.
As stated before they still have a long way to go before they are practical for most people.

A congestion fee waived with do wonders for one's definition of "practical".

Battery replacement in the Leaf is $5500 - too much for my blood. Prius batteries, a direct analogue, routinely go 250k+ miles in taxis before replacement, at which point one could drop in a new battery back, not from the dealer, for roughly half of the Nissan's. Elon's Gigafactory will drive Li-ion prices much, much lower. Plus he's got other tricks up his sleeve for world domination involving home energy storarge that tie in but are tangential to this EV convo.

Some firms are doing reconditioned batteries, further dropping the price.

I realize CA is one the bleeding edge of this sort of thing, but you guys are naysaying a lot of stuff which exists here that didn't 4 years ago. An incredible number of them now are converts - every other car in the carpool lane is electric. BIG incentive. Bunch of petrol heads too. I mean, China is big on this stuff - how possibly could they be more forward-thinking than the "First World"? Oh right, will.

Anyway, oil commodities are tanking, the economy is good and ICE sales are up vs. alternatives. Coincidental? Nah, couldn't be.

[bertiewhang]

A leaf in the UK starts at £17000 if you choose to lease a battery pack at £70 per month.
£21000 if you buy outright. You can get a new Up! Or Clio on the road for well under £10000.
You can buy a lot of fuel which either car I've mentioned won't use a lot of for the change.
Electric is still far too expensive and far too impractical for most owners/drivers the world over.
Most people don't have a drive never mind garage to charge up their car. I'm not saying electric won't be good but it has a very long way to go before it will be even remotely useable for the masses.

[davids]

News flash - other folks make electric cars which work for a lot of people. Weird!


Rather than pick this apart point-by-point, if it doesn't work for you fine, I don't really care. Anyone with the funds, the need, the smarts and a conscience will do the math and balance pros and cons. It's not for lazy people and for the non-forward-thinking but hey.

Ha! You too are correct - charging stations will not explode due to the Tesla halo effect. I'll laugh at that next time I can't find a nice parking spot due to the proliferation of charging stations occupying prime real estate. What, they're special or somethin'?

I don't appreciate either your sarcasm or (barely hidden) insults. I'm interested in discussing the state of electric vehicles, including references to my personal calculations. If you're capable of doing that, I'l continue. If not, this will be my last reply to you:

At this point, people who are adopting electric vehicles have, of necessity, greater funds than the average car-buyer and greater willingness to accommodate the minor-to-massive inconveniences needed to refuel their cars. To put this another way: EVs cost more, and have less range, than ICE vehicles.

I don't think you are disagreeing with these facts. I think you're claiming that those of us who aren't willing to accept those trade-offs are morally and intellectually inferior to those who do. Am I misunderstanding you?

And as far as the "explosion" of charging stations: I've seen Tesla's map. The infrastructure is embryonic. Your sarcastic comment makes it seem like you think I'm against them. How did you get that idea?

So, one more time: I'm all for EVs and think the industry is making great strides. I just don't think they've reached parity with ICE cars. I'm not personally sold, not yet.

[Saab2000]

EVs aren't for everyone. But for a lot of folks they would be fine. My brother in Minneapolis has a car that pretty much never leaves a 25-mile radius of his home. He currently drives a beat up Chevy Malibu and is driving it until it's no longer a viable car, probably another year or so.

I think he's hoping to get a Nissan Leaf when the time comes but I keep telling him to hold out for the Gen II model, which, when it arrives, will probably have 50% more range and a lot of real world changes in it as a result of the successes and experiences of the first generation model.

He needs to get his parking situation sorted but otherwise he's a good candidate for one as his daily driver and he knows it. 99% of his daily driving is under 30-40 miles per day and for exceptional cases he can either use the other car, a Jetta, or rent one for the one or two times per year he might need to make a real road trip.

[jitahs]

I don't appreciate either your sarcasm or (barely hidden) insults. I'm interested in discussing the state of electric vehicles, including references to my personal calculations. If you're capable of doing that, I'l continue. If not, this will be my last reply to you:

At this point, people who are adopting electric vehicles have, of necessity, greater funds than the average car-buyer and greater willingness to accommodate the minor-to-massive inconveniences needed to refuel their cars. To put this another way: EVs cost more, and have less range, than ICE vehicles.

I don't think you are disagreeing with these facts. I think you're claiming that those of us who aren't willing to accept those trade-offs are morally and intellectually inferior to those who do. Am I misunderstanding you?

And as far as the "explosion" of charging stations: I've seen Tesla's map. The infrastructure is embryonic. Your sarcastic comment makes it seem like you think I'm against them. How did you get that idea?

So, one more time: I'm all for EVs and think the industry is making great strides. I just don't think they've reached parity with ICE cars. I'm not personally sold, not yet.

Sarcasm on vsalon - never!

You're either trolling in the name of "curating" the convo with your second para or are being wilfully obtuse. If you can't understand it I suggest you read it again, rather than incorrectly re-phrase statements like a political spin doctor. From a "mod" no less, nicely done.

News flash - like I said, Tesla isn't the only game in town! Research that and get back to me. At some point you actually have to think about how to use Google to find charge stations rather than have me feed it to you.

Your biggest presumption here is conflating your use case into "EVs are not here for everyone". You've already established you don't want one, even though you haven't presented a scenario in which you actually share household cars, fly or rent. Well if you don't do those things you aren't really trying very hard, are you?

We can sit here all day listening to people pick it apart or you could actually make a real effort to research it. It's your choice.

[ron l edmiston]

-- david is so correct relative to ev vs ice.. look back at ole henry's model a, the norm and majority --- out of their price range, but look today..
ev's so correct for local around town, commute, and low mile driving in a close radius..

from a lube guy having made my living as such, look at petroleum companies and their re-look at what produces kilowatts..

ronnie with a plug-in smile

[jitahs]

A leaf in the UK starts at £17000 if you choose to lease a battery pack at £70 per month.
£21000 if you buy outright. You can get a new Up! Or Clio on the road for well under £10000.
You can buy a lot of fuel which either car I've mentioned won't use a lot of for the change.
Electric is still far too expensive and far too impractical for most owners/drivers the world over.
Most people don't have a drive never mind garage to charge up their car. I'm not saying electric won't be good but it has a very long way to go before it will be even remotely useable for the masses.

You're saying "masses" as if your masses are the same as my masses. ALL of my neighbors are good candidates for EVs with government incentives. The Leaf on craigslist can be financed for $149/mo - that's with zero gas. Point is your locale has to make it a priority - that's a political process that one can be apart of.