Frame #0002 Build

[mxboy349]

Chain Stays Attached. Tacked them in the fixture, check alignment with a wheel, made some adjustments and finish brazed. Got the silver to "pull" through nicely, hard to tell from the pics. These pics are after "cleanup", didn't get any during process. I am happy with the alignment and looking forward to attaching the seat stays. With every joint I have more and more respect for the guys who can do it clean with out any hand work.

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[Itsnotarace]

Hey Eric, how big is your table? I like what you have done with the fixtures for it. I have found a 700mm x 500mm toolmakers marking out table, but not sure if it will be big enough, what do you think?? Andre

[mxboy349]

Hey Eric, how big is your table? I like what you have done with the fixtures for it. I have found a 700mm x 500mm toolmakers marking out table, but not sure if it will be big enough, what do you think?? Andre

Andre,
Here is my post about my table. http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...ble-30279.html It's not big enough but the price was right.

[mxboy349]

Well I've been busy. Work, kids, family, ridin, life in general. Here is my latest progress. Wanted to do something "advanced" (for me anyway) for the seat stay cluster. Here's what I came up with. I think my fit up could be a little better.

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Questions.
Can this type of joint be done with Silver(I’m using System 48)?
Should I put a “Plug” in the stay to give these joint more surface area or is there enough the way it is?

[Rody]

"I think my fit up could be a little better. "

Eric, you answered your own question. I'd make that much tighter before attempting to join.

rody

[steve garro]

Here's what I came up with. I think my fit up could be a little better.


Questions.
Can this type of joint be done with Silver(I’m using System 48)?
Should I put a “Plug” in the stay to give these joint more surface area or is there enough the way it is?

Way too gappy for any filler metal, IMO.
- Garro.

[RspinnaKing]

Eric,

I gave the seatstays of my second frame a similar treatment and found the mitering and fitting to be quite tedious but worth the work. One trick (you may already use) that helped me tighten up the gaps was to wrap a strap of emery cloth around a piece of tubing with an OD that approximates that of your seat lug and "file" your seatstays at the angle you need. Make sense?

It is very difficult to get silver to fill even a very small gap, so work slowly and carefully, checking your work every few strokes once you get close. Sharpie marks on the edge of the stay at problem spots will help you keep things lined up if you're transferring between your table and a vise and help you keep tabs on how much material you're removing. Again, work slowly since once you've taken too much material off you might as well cut them off and plug them, which would be a bit of a bummer. I think you'll be pleased with the result that shows more of your hand work. Here's the finished product on my wife's bike. Too bad the pinhole spoils the composition:

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Keep up the nice work.

-Ryan

[Todd Mosley]

The stays will only have as much surface area on the plug as they do now on the lug so I don't think there will be any strength benefit. File the nub off stay where it meets the side of the lug and that may bring the gap down a lot. What does it look like looking from the bb shell up to the seat cluster?

Questions.
Can this type of joint be done with Silver(I’m using System 48)?
Should I put a “Plug” in the stay to give these joint more surface area or is there enough the way it is?

[mxboy349]

Decided to regroup and cap the stays. My “fit up” on the miters from the previous post were not very good. To "gappy" and to far gone to make them correct. I now know what to do next time. Found a handy “tool” in my junk drawer to hold the cap in place. I still need to tweak them in a bit before I stick them on.

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[mxboy349]

Been a while (I have been busy with other stuff). Need to attached the chain stays and have questions about vent holes. Do you guys drill small holes to vent the stays? I capped the stays and I am using a plug style dropout. Anyone?

[ToddFarr]

Eric,
Here is what I like to do:

I like to plug stay holes unless the customer wants them open (rain bikes, peace of mind etc) . I drill a 1/8" hole near the dropout and near the seat cluster on each stay, then I use brass wood screws, and the pitch threads directly into 1/8" hole. I thread it in just 1 turn, enough to hold it in and then silver braze it in place. Cut of the head with a dremel really fast and file flat.


My new way to plug Vent Holes by FARR Frameworks, on Flickr

A nice helpful thread on sealing or leaving them open here: http://www.velocipedesalon.com/forum...les-32306.html

[NBC]

i take it you mean seatstays as opposed to chainstays ?

i'd place a pretty small vent hole fairly central on the stay, i'm using 1.4mm pins for that kind of thing, they seem to work well for releasing gas, but seal them up before your frame visits the dunk tank, rather a nightmare trying to get water out of a small hole !

NBC

[MrkiMedo]

“Pinned” the lugs. #51 drill and tapered some finish nails. Seemed easy enough. Ready to start with the "Braze-ons" (water bottle bosses, derailleur mount, etc.)
Attachment 49799

Sorry for the noob question, but how do you flux insides of the joint after pinning?

[Todd Mosley]

You take the pins out, add flux, then put the pins back in. The pins aren't permanent until you add silver.

[mxboy349]

Seat Stays attached. Pretty happy with the results. Got the tip of one of them a little to hot, easy to do on those thin tips.


Untitled by brandt_e, on Flickr


Untitled by brandt_e, on Flickr

Vent hole "plugged" with a stainless steel wood screw.

Untitled by brandt_e, on Flickr

You can see in this pic where the tip of the stay on the right got "burned away" from getting to hot.

Untitled by brandt_e, on Flickr

A little "globby" with the silver but nothing a file won't take care of.

Untitled by brandt_e, on Flickr

After some clean up and shaping of the seat lug.

Untitled by brandt_e, on Flickr

Brake bridge and some braze on's coming up next! Getting closer.

[mxboy349]

Been away for a while. (Life gets in the way) Thought I would update this thread. Frame #0002 is basically finished. Head tube has been faced/reamed and the BB has been chased (even though this pic doesn't show it). Just needs paint. Not 100% sure if I will paint it and ride it or not. Had some issues with "Flowing" the silver through the joints that I had to go back and fix (see some of the previous post). So my confidence in it isn't great. I am about 80% of the way through frame #0003 and I am allot more confident in the joints. The alignment is much better as well. I will probably have a "rider" in #0003. Anyway enjoy.


IMG_5280 by brandt_e, on Flickr

[duanedr]

I'm totally happy to have Doug, Andrew, RS and the dozen or two other dudes here that I respect a ton disagree with me and TRY to shame me into giving up this framebuilding thing. But I'm going to disagree with them - sort of.

You say you didn't get full penetration and alignment could be better. So?

So that means you know what to work on for #3...mostly! It seems like you're losing some of the learning potential if you don't build it up and ride this frame. Ride it. Can you tell that it's not aligned perfectly? If so, you know an outer boundary. If you can't tell, then on some level (probably not RS or Doug's or ?) it's good enough. Heck, you paid for the tubes, ride them!

My #1 frameset (well, 1.5, see other posts) has done about 1200 miles so far and it's my Go To Bike (ahead of Ti, carbon or another custom steel bike). It's fillet brazed and I used my plywood workbench top and a straight edge to align it. Is it 'straight'? Well...it's as straight as I can measure and measures as straight as a couple other frames I have. Will it fail because I cooked a joint? Maybe, but I practiced a fair bit and I don't think I did anything too terrible to the tubes as I was building it but, yes, at some point, they all will. Mine will fail at maybe 4k miles rather than 40k or 400k like Dougs or RS's. That's ok (as long as i'm diligent in checking for cracks!), I'll be riding frame #3 or 4 before 4k miles rolls around. And at that point frame #1 will be hanging in the rafters having fully served it's purpose. I had some fun (and frustration!) building it, more fun riding it and learned a ton along the way. You should too. I mean, it's just a bike frame. I don't mean to diminish the safety aspect of this but, until it breaks, it's a ride-able bike!

I think what Doug is saying is don't settle for 'oh, I got silver around most of the joint, that's good enough!" and then say we've mastered that part of framebuilding. Always strive for full penetration (love saying that) and develop a process and torch action that accomplishes that. However, Hari Kari isn't necessary if we don't get there on frame #1 (sorry Doug if you're suggesting Hari Kari is necessary at that point! :-) ). And IMHO it doesn't mean we shouldn't ride it to see if the other aspects of the frame aren't right or wrong. Maybe ride it for a few hundred miles to see what you like or don't like and then cut it up to see how penetration was on all of the joints. Even building it up will teach you things about where bridges and braze ons are located etc.

So, in summary, rattle can paint it, build it up and ride it. If it sucks, disassemble it and keep working on the next one. Nothing lost.

Alright, fire away!

[devlin]

Agree 100% with what Duane said. Having just gone through the same process for frame no.1 I decided to stop short of a really neat clean up and just ride the thing. I know I can clean up the frame well enough but what I needed confrimation on was that I'm going down the right path. I know the joints will be strong enough to last the couple 1000km I ride at least. I didn't get 100% full penetration of the chain stays but I could just see a little bit of silver sarting to collect at the edge of the tube so I'd say 98-99%. Which hopefully means I'll be finished frame 2 or 3 etc. From my first proper ride today I now know that just about everything is spot on except for the front. It just needs a little tweak. I then need to measure it up as accurate as a I can and verify how far I was from my design and what changes I can make and how it affects it. Have to ride it to learn that part.

I also agree with Doug in the sense that once you get a few frames in you need to be nailing this part of it. I I ever get to hang my shingle out then I'd be shooting for as close to perfect in this area as possible. One bad frame failure is bad for the rider and bad for the business.

This is coming from a veteran of.......oh......about 1 frame.

Keep going though man, your work looks great so far.

[Andrew R Stewart]

"I'm totally happy to have Doug, Andrew, RS and the dozen or two other dudes here that I respect a ton disagree with me and TRY to shame me into giving up this framebuilding thing. But I'm going to disagree with them - sort of." Duane

Well while I'm complimented by being mentioned in the same sentence as Doug and Richard I'll take minor issue with your comment. In this thread I never said to not use this, #1, frame. In fact in the posting I do concerning frame alignment, completion and use I almost always side on the "making what you have work" path. Even if the frame is not used very long of even doesn't get past the final alignment stage due to a failure (of a tube or braze) by going that far you've learned more.

So I agree with Duane in that #1 should be completed and ridden, at least till #2 or 3 is on the road. THEN I think #1 should be cut up, sectioned through some of the joints. Only then will Eric really know what filler penetration he actually got. Andy.

[duanedr]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply anyone said 'Don't Ride It!' but the feeling I got was unless it's ready to be sold with your name on the downtube, you should start over. Maybe i'm sensitive. :-)

I know from my own experience at that point in the thread, it would be easy to discard it and start over or give up (well, not easy but...). I just didn't want OP to come to that conclusion and miss out on riding his first frame and learning from the build up and so on.

We completely agree on the point just not my wording.