Those who sided w/ the US left behind. Not to mention it could be the new haven for terror against the US.
Those who sided w/ the US left behind. Not to mention it could be the new haven for terror against the US.
slow.
there's not much more the US could do there. the choice was either occupy the country indefinitely or pull out and allow the Taliban to resume control. Neither is a good option. I feel bad for the citizens of Afghanistan but I don't think it's justifiable for the US to occupy that territory any longer.
One of my better friends is a Russian that came to the States to work on his Phd. He served as a translator when I went to the XB3 bicycle company in Kharkov Ukraine when Shimano Europe was also there to work out a deal to put Shimano parts on XB3 frames. Up to that point their bicycles were equipped with XB3 made parts. That would be like 50's era technology used on not-very-well-made parts. An agreement was struck and XB3 started to equip their bicycles with Shimano parts (which saved the company for awhile). That was one of the most interesting events of my life. But I digress
Oleg my friend was conscripted into the Russian army when he was 20 or so. At that time his USSR unit had to do a tour in Afghanistan. It was a terrible experience for him. His description of the effect on his friends that were also there was that they came away really damaged. His stories sounded the same as what happened to my friends that had to serve in Viet Nam and also came back broken. His opinion after serving over there was that the situation was unsolvable for an invading army to solve. He was describing his Afghanistan experiences to me in 2002 or so.
The mistake was going in. I can't find it on my shelves but I believe it was Peter Hopkirk's book on the Great Game that I read. Afghanistan is where empires go to die. When the British retreated it was something like six people that made it out.
We may not agree with how people live in different countries but we just have to accept that. We definitely cannot enter a war and expect them to change for our own specific vision of a better world. This do not work unless you plan on invading them permanently and settle there for centuries and mix up with the local (like vikings did in europe, like US does in Hawaï). The only thing that can help them is giving them a good example of a sane society respecting human rights in the hope they might be inspired by it, something we also all fail to do repeatedly, and help those that want to set free to get out of their country and have a chance to start a new, better life in our own countries.
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T h o m a s
I agree with colker; the exit should have been timed to accommodate all those in the pool assisting U.S. forces as translators, etc. We took their desperately needed services, then crapped on them when the time came to leave.
Yes, it is sad and horrible that the US and other countries left those Afghans who helped. But let us not forget that this was going to happen within 30-60 days anyway due to the invading army thing stated above and 20 years of US military mistakes which arrogantly kept the cities while the Taliban rebuilt through the vast majority of the country in the rural areas. And, the US and other nations relied on corrupt folks (as per usual) to do its bidding. So it was only a matter of time and had gotten to a very very short time. The die was cast when Bush sent the US in 20 years ago saying the Taliban would pay. It cost the US what a trillion bucks and how many lives? Yes, sad for the folks left behind but that was predestined 20 years ago and there was no way around it. And, to Doug’s point above (although I can’t source the exact quote and specifics while having coffee this am) the Russians who have long had a “religion/discrimination based” terrorism problem also did tell the Americans not to go in at the time not because of protecting their interests but because they said was a morass that wouldn’t solve the supposed issue but Bush wouldn’t trust the Russians and wanted to look like he was doing something on terror since 9/11 happened on his watch.
« If I knew what I was doing, I’d be doing it right now »
-Jon Mandel
This excerpt from the linked Nat Geo article stood out to me, in terms of the relative youth of Afghanistan and the world that they have lived in for the past 20 years.
More than three in four Afghans today are under 25: too young to remember the Taliban’s reign of fear and, especially in cities, too accustomed to freedoms to be eager to relinquish them. These Afghans, shaped by the post-2001 reality, are unwilling to revert to a reactionary and repressive past. Now that the Taliban have seized the capital of Kabul, they must grapple with a future that only weeks ago seemed incomprehensible. How did we get here?
https://www.nationalgeographic.com/h...02057533FD3D37
rw saunders
hey, how lucky can one man get.
"And how did it work out all in all? Well, not bad. The Taliban are gone. The al-Qaida are on the run."
Said the U.S. Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld, six months after the invasion started in 2002.
Walter
Calmer than you are.
I think the next step is to enter into direct high level talks with the new government of Afghanistan and try to hash out a cooperative agreement and prevent what could be (yet another) humanitarian disaster if infrastructure falls apart before the Afghan winter. The Afghans are split between Iran and Pakistan, they have China threatening them in the north and India willing to screw up everything clandestinely just to f*ck with Pakistan. Time to get serious about peace and not just throw tons of cash and weapons at them.
This 20 year old disaster could have been avoided if there were more people of courage.
Rep. Barbara Lee was the only member of Congress to vote against war in Afghanistan. Some called her a traitor. | Washington Post
Last edited by guido; 08-17-2021 at 11:05 AM.
Guy Washburn
Photography > www.guywashburn.com
“Instructions for living a life: Pay attention. Be astonished. Tell about it.”
– Mary Oliver
2500 US troops with air cover and some help from the ANA were maintaining the peace. We have 1.3 million service members, 28K are in South Korea, 35K in Germany, and 700 in Kosovo. The Taliban was waiting for the US to withdraw and we did it poorly.
Retired Sailor, Marine dad, semi-professional cyclist, fly fisherman, and Indian School STEM teacher.
Assistant Operating Officer at Farm Soap homemade soaps. www.farmsoap.com
Bill, as you well know, the US service academies teach the History of War so that the US commanders will avoid the mistakes of the past and prevent the kind of thinking that led to the French and the Maginot Line.
Yet, the US military always seems to be fighting the last war and this one was no exception.
The issue at the moment is not if the US and her allies handled the withdrawal poorly. That they did.
The issue is that it was a mistake to go in there in the first place, there were constant mistakes made by the US military in strategy, there were constant mistakes made by every administration leading up to the current one (and maybe some there too), constant mistakes made by members of both parties in the US Congress.
The Judy Woodruff interview of General McMaster, an obviously highly intelligent human, last night on the PBS Newshour was very telling in his retro/ late 50’s early 60’s use of language and rationalizations was extremely telling in how this all came to be the disaster it is. The thinking of one of the best military minds (and I would surmise his peers) was clearly a part of why there are/were no good options any more. It also shows that outsiders need to be involved in oversight rather than cheerleading. Sort of the every writer needs an editor thought.
So, it is not that the US did this withdrawal poorly; it is that the compounding errors of the preceding two decades guaranteed that no matter what option of withdrawal was taken it would be done poorly with disastrous results no matter what. There were no “good” options.
The phrase to apply to the US and her allies that comes to mind is “painted themselves into a corner”.
Edit to add this: There may be a related conversation to think about…is it that Military Academies “teach” military history instead of “educate” (from the Latin educo, educere, eductus…I lead out of) about it? In other words, because military tends to think in a command and control style does that go into their learning system in such a way that it prevents success in the very subject they are trying to pass on.
And also, if the overseers are only getting the data to help their oversight from the overseen won’t the oversight be meaningless?
« If I knew what I was doing, I’d be doing it right now »
-Jon Mandel
20 years and billions of dollars in training and equipment. How long should we ask our soldiers to give their lives for the freedom of others that refuse to fight for their own?
The victory conditions at start of the war, were to get OBL and Al Qaeda,
the "Bring Civilization to the Heathen" goal was thought up after OBL disappeared
into the arms of the Pakistani Intelligence Service.
A good book to read is "The Hardest Place" a long look the US in the Pech Valley
from 2003 to 2020.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/04/11...stan-military/
Trillions of dollars.
And they say you guys can't afford universal health care...
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