When your friends all move to the 'burbs and become unresponsive...

[caleb]

What follows is a bit of a rant, but I imagine some here may have been in a similar spot, so I'm hoping it's productive.

***

I value my long term friendships, and I think all of the research showing that day-to-day friendships matter for happiness is more or less intuitive. (This is where, out of laziness, I cite a Huffington Post article for evidence for something well established.)

What, then, does one do when all of one's friends have kids and promptly flee to the suburbs, becoming almost entirely unavailable for any and all face-to-face interaction? Any suggestions for how a person maintains friendships when the other halves of all of those friendships seem perhaps not uninterested, but totally unwilling to put anything concrete into the friendship?

To be clear, my wife and I don't have kids. We aren't going to have kids. But we'd like to maintain friendships with all of our friends who do have kids. We just have no idea how.

And, to be clear, we've been flexible. When we bought a new house last fall, and there were 3-4 other couples also moving at the same time, we offered to move to a single, central location where friends who were also moving might congregate. We had no personal interest in leaving the city, but we would have done it -significantly altering our lives - if anyone else had been wiling to make some compromises to create community.

Nyet. Nothing at all. Everyone went to hell in their own way, miles and miles apart, in a McMansion of their own suburban hell. Nothing matters anymore but school districts, property taxes, and kids' activities.


***

What is to be done? How does one create adult community in a world of local-property-tax-funded, segregated-school-district, anxiety-over-inequality, snowplow parenting?

[Blue Jays]

All friendships ebb and flow. Seek to retain maximum flexibility.

[mjbabcock]

Kids are effing exhausting, and are boat anchors on a social life. I have three, and have essentially had to write off adult relationships for 10-15 years (I’m 8 years in). There isn’t time...especially if the parents or in-laws don’t live close enough to help out. Heck, I have trouble seeing my wife.

That said, I’d love it if some friends would offer to take one of us out for an evening each month. And swap it so that each spouse gets out. It would be even better if I have a babysitter and we could both go out, but that is harder than it should be.

[dashDustin]

Kids are effing exhausting, and are boat anchors on a social life. I have three, and have essentially had to write off adult relationships for 10-15 years (I’m 8 years in). There isn’t time...especially if the parents or in-laws don’t live close enough to help out. Heck, I have trouble seeing my wife.

this. over and over and over. i'll chit chat with my mom on the phone and she'll be like "why don't you ever go hang out with friends to relax."

well, because i don't have time for friends. work + kids + side work + home ownership + attempting to ride. work is a beat down, because i don't enjoy my job, and there is not a single person here that i can relate to. kids are kids. and mine are especially hard (for me), because i'm the step-father and struggle with getting the respect of the boys (they're young, and i completely understand what they're going through).

i will say though...when i got married and inherited 2 little ones, the change was extreme. but now that the friends from my previous life are having kids, we suddenly have all this new stuff and things to talk about. as someone said....ebbs and flows.

[rwsaunders]

We didn’t have kids for ten years after being married and I call that era BC...before children. Time was much more available, our lifestyle was much more detached from planned and routine activities and we also weren’t in a digital world, which can be a time suck in itself...work, play, surfing, etc. AD...after diapers...changed everything and time became a premium and not that there is a direct correlation, but friends moved on and new friends came on board...different interests, relocation, new partners, etc.

A few common threads that have tied us to both old and new friends, have been kid’s activities, in my particular case coaching (because I couldn’t stand sitting on the sidelines and second guessing life...kids are more interesting that whining parents), short and extended joint vacations and food, with an emphasis on dinner. Rather that always going to a restaurant, we take turns hosting, planning meals, discussing wine and just have a fantastic time. We have been able to connect some pretty diverse individuals over a meal, who all have something in common with us as friends, yet open up discussions with an array of perspectives. Our kids even laugh about what they call “our parent’s Bohemian dining events”.

On a related note and almost to a tee, our friends that haven’t had kids, have all been able to retire quite early and do all of the things that we did BC (travel extensively, own recreational homes, follow riskier career paths in some cases). It takes a while to get back in the game after the kids move on and time above ground becomes more scarce as well. We are fortunate to have a couple of longtime friends with whom we get to share time and thoughts with; some have kids and some don’t; and I think that we have all remained friends because we know that life required adjustments.

[caleb]

The back and forth about time here is interesting.

Last night I wrote this after getting fed up trying for three months and at least ten emails to get a single overnight mountain bike trip planned in August.

One of the guys who can't seem to take two days out of the whole summer away has a stay at home wife and a pretty much full time nanny.

[NYCfixie]

I will try and not repeat what others have said.
- My wife and I chose not to have kids.
- Living in Manhattan/NYC was great because I had friends from childhood and my wife had friends from college who moved there.
- Then many started getting married, having kids, and moving to the 'burbs and we slowly lost touch.
- We decided to move to a 'burb that was one of the most diverse towns in NJ which had many child-free couples like ourselves and a neighborhood of couples with kids but who also liked to party. That meant they would get babysitters and we would go out - locally - so in an emergency they could get home. Mostly Saturday nights but anything during the weekend days was off limits due to kid activities.
- Then we moved to Boston...not the friendliest town so no comment.
- We are at that time when long lost friends have teenage kids who do not need as much oversight and/or are going to college so those relationships are being re-kindled.
- We are also at a time when couples are getting divorced which sometimes makes it even more awkward - who do you choose?

- And last, we are lucky to come from big and very close families (I have 7 siblings and she has 6) so that is great too because at least our siblings think we may -once in a while- be willing to go to a Saturday/Sunday soccer game, kids party, etc, if it means we will get to spend time with our siblings, brothers/sisters-in-law, nieces, and nephews.

Our best advice is to move to an urban area which has couples of similar age to you and do not have kids. These areas tend to be the most diverse neighborhoods but not always with the best school districts because child-free couples do not want to pay high property taxes for no reason.

[j44ke]

It happens. To be honest, some of your friends with kids will become unrecognizable. And tiring. And then they feel awkward about you not having kids, about you and your spouse having regular sex or uninterrupted time alone in the bathroom or just time alone anywhere or dinner out alone together or no babysitter curfew (even if you might go to sleep at 9PM) etc. and they start to view you as either making them feel inferior or as being completely out of touch with what is real in this world. Of course, they are total idiots. Sleep deprived, without genitalia or spirit or life or oxygen or anything really beyond "My kid etc. blah blah blah yada oh I don't read the news anymore carp blarp etc."

So you just find new friends. Not easy but it happens. I met this guy in the park riding an ancient Colnago and turns out he's an artist and his wife was a gallery owner and after we figured out they were not sociopathic cannibals we invited them over and now we are really good friends. Some of my wife's colleagues failed at being corporate lawyers but they were great people and got new jobs at regular firms which means they have time to goof off periodically. Of course, we've had some blips where we met a couple somewhere and they seemed nice but then at some point they just disappeared but that's why they put people's faces on milk cartons.

Each of us have like 2-3 dyed in the wool tell each other everything do anything for friends from when we were young and stupid. And after many years living far away from each other, several of them have moved back. One lives 4 blocks from our house in the city, one lives 45 minutes from our house upstate, and another will move there whenever they find a house.

Keep in touch with good friends, be receptive to missing friends when they return, go visit people when you have a chance, and don't be surprised if you make new good friends after you think that time in your life has passed. Just keep your eyes open for the opportunity. And keep a good supply of nice cheeses in the fridge. New people seem to like good cheese.

[theflashunc]

Sometimes things just end. As others mentioned. Maintain flexibility. You're the one with all the time.

[Octave]

Grand changes in one's life tend to reveal a lot about friendships. Nearly 4 years ago now my wife and I sold most of our earthly possessions (and our home) and moved across the ocean. The first year was a whirlwind of working very hard to maintain important relationships with the friends that we had known and loved for many years (in some cases, decades). In the end, I would say that we had about a 90% attrition rate. At some point it becomes very clear who is going to make the effort to maintain a relationship that was once easy and has now become less-so and those who will not. A couple of our friends facetime or skype with us on an almost weekly basis, a couple have even visited. Others completely fell off the map, stopped responding to our requests for calls/chats and even flaked on us when we came to visit our old city. It's not exactly the same situation, but similar.

I think in the end we are better off for it. Our circle of friends is significantly smaller than it once was but also significantly richer.

Sometimes things just end. As others mentioned. Maintain flexibility. You're the one with all the time.

Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

[dgaddis]

The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

I don't think that's what he meant, I don't think he meant having kids is better or more important than not having kids. The difference is kid-free people have more choices available. Once someone makes the choice to have a kid or two, lots of other choices are taken off the table.

The kid free person can stay at work as late as they want or need to. After work they can go ride bikes, or go the gym, or go hang with friends, or go out to a movie, or whatever. Someone with a kid, depending on the kids age and their partner/spouses schedule, may or may not have those same choices available.

[Octave]

I don't think that's what he meant, I don't think he meant having kids is better or more important than not having kids. The difference is kid-free people have more choices available. Once someone makes the choice to have a kid or two, lots of other choices are taken off the table.

The kid free person can stay at work as late as they want or need to. After work they can go ride bikes, or go the gym, or go hang with friends, or go out to a movie, or whatever. Someone with a kid, depending on the kids age and their partner/spouses schedule, may or may not have those same choices available.

That's the problem with this assumption, though - kids-free people do not inherently have more time available. They have chosen to alot it elsewhere. Person A has children, which I understand is a huge amount of time-commitment. Person B has a full-time job (40h/week), hustles freelance in the evenings (20h/week) and coaches cyclists 5 mornings a week before work (20h/week). Person B has no kids. Person A and person B have both made their choices and neither commitment takes precedence over another, that's all I'm trying to say. For person B, "lots of other choices are taken off the table" too. But none of those details matter, because no ones time is worth more or less than anyone elses. If you choose to prioritize children then kudos, that's a really big life choice. But those who have chosen other paths may have similarly dedicated their time elsewhere.

[sk_tle]

Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

Also, there are more than one way to do parenting.

Kids, especially babies are much more adaptable and much less fragile than some parents tend to think of it. When we got our first baby, we were the first couple in a relatively large circle of friends to have kids. We eased it up a bit on the getting out with friends but we never stopped. We made a point of not buying every little specialized appliance/tool/thing for babies and limited ourself to common sense. All immediate needs of our baby would have to fit in a single regular size backpack and they did*. As long as a baby is fed, hydrated and wears appropriate clothing it can stay with you pretty much anywhere. It's is especially easier nowadays with the ban on smoking in public places and bars. Our babies were carried in many drinks, dinners. We sometimes came both with the kid and we took turns to decide which one of us would stay with the friends well into the night and dance clubs. Our babies started their night in all kind of places, my second daughters even fell asleep right before the national day's fireworks and didn't wake up. Sadly most of these "friends" didn't do the same once they got their own kids.

So yes, you don't have to give up on everything and the flexibility should come from both parents and non parents.

* Dustin, I advise you to do the same, life is much simpler that way. Most of that crap you carry probably only serve a purpose in a "what if" situation and can be replaced by something "not baby specific" found in the place you visit. A basic kit doesn't imply filling the trunk of your car.

[Christian Fox]

The end of the original post is an avalanche of city-slicker cliches about white people raising kids. So, if new parents pick up on the "I'm cooler than my newly dorky suburban hell parent friends" vibe, that may be a turn-off. They don't give you a pair of pleated Dockers and white tennis shoes when you leave the hospital with your kid.

[dgaddis]

* Dustin, I advise you to do the same, life is much simpler that way. Most of that crap you carry probably only serve a purpose in a "what if" situation and can be replaced by something "not baby specific" found in the place you visit. A basic kit doesn't imply filling the trunk of your car.

That's exactly what we do. Everything we need to be out and about all day (minus the stroller) fits into a backpack. Overnight trips require more stuff obviously, but normal day to day is a smallish backpack.

I'm looking forward to when Nora has enough teeth that she can eat just normal food.

[theflashunc]

Grand changes in one's life tend to reveal a lot about friendships. Nearly 4 years ago now my wife and I sold most of our earthly possessions (and our home) and moved across the ocean. The first year was a whirlwind of working very hard to maintain important relationships with the friends that we had known and loved for many years (in some cases, decades). In the end, I would say that we had about a 90% attrition rate. At some point it becomes very clear who is going to make the effort to maintain a relationship that was once easy and has now become less-so and those who will not. A couple of our friends facetime or skype with us on an almost weekly basis, a couple have even visited. Others completely fell off the map, stopped responding to our requests for calls/chats and even flaked on us when we came to visit our old city. It's not exactly the same situation, but similar.

I think in the end we are better off for it. Our circle of friends is significantly smaller than it once was but also significantly richer.


Maybe this comment was made in jest, in which case I apologize for calling it out, but if not: this is one of the assumptions that get laid on those of us who don't have kids that I think is hugely unfair and thoughtless. My wife and I decided not to have children for a variety of reasons and people make the assumption that we are therefore free of all responsibilities and available/free all the time. We're not. Time is a limited, non-renewable resource and every individual gets to decide how they want to spend it. Want to spend it on kids? Good for you. Want to spend it on work? Bikes? Planting trees? Watching Netflix? Also, good for you. Having children is a choice, just like every other fashion of spending your time. Don't devalue the decisions of others by judging how they alot their time. The inherent implication is that how a child-having person spends their time is prioritized and more important than how a childless person spends their time.

Easy man. I'm also in the no kids ever camp. I've seen it first hand. You have more free time. Especially if the kids are little. Give em space and let em do their thing. Friendships change and evolve and sometimes, yeah, they disappear.

But kids are a whole nother ballgame. I've seen friends age like a Dorian Gray painting in those first couple years after having their first. Shit is hard. It's one reason why I've got no interest in it.

You've got two things parents don't, money and free time. That's okay. Again, to your point, you made different choices. Hell, they're the same ones I've made. But I stand by my original point. As you mentioned in your OP, you were willing to reorient your entire life to maintain some of these relationships. If that doesn't speak to your kidless flexibility, what does?

[Octave]

Fair enough - I had no intention of offending you. The only point I wanted to make is that the choices we make are just that, choices. I do have kidless flexibility, but that is not inherently true for all kidless people. Like I said before, everyone gets to choose how they spend their time and telling somebody that they're "the one with all the time" just because they have stated that they don't have kids is a bit of a loaded assumption, in my opinion.

But that's just, like, my opinion, man.

[Dallas Tex]

Your friend’s needs and priorities have shifted in one short trip to the hospital. They’re putting their kids needs before their own, as they should.

The idea mentioned above of trying to schedule something with just one of them once per month is genius.

Kids will suck the life out of anyone, until around the the time kid gets a drivers license.

Don’t write off your great relationships, just add to them. Add folks that don’t want to talk about kids 24/7. But your friends will return, much more well rounded from the ongoing beating that is raising a kid.

[Too Tall]

The emotion is heartfelt we also have been thru this. First, in every case as with yourselves having a meaningful relationship with parents is almost entirely on their terms. They are forming their own new bonds with other parents, sleep deprived etc. etc. We don't accept this easily, it changes the formerly beautiful nature/nurture which happened naturally...before kids. Of course it's not "kids" per se it is a life altering change of events that wags this dog by the tail. Aging parents, mental illness and a host of others to name a few.

We lost very good friends a couple years ago. They just stopped becoming available and that was pretty devastating. You adjust, find new community keep rolling along. I'll wager it was you who tended to initiate and "make stuff happen" more so than others. That open heart of yours ain't dead it's just pissed off.

Turns out every time I quit thinking about it I find myself engaging new communities I never considered likely because my (aheem) former friends were always so available. That is no criticism of you or me, it's just the comfortable existence we had.

FWIIW (I hate that) This silly Airstream trailer has changed everything. All you have to do is hitch up, get gone to some awesome location and voila there it is. Bunches of like minded people who love doing the same things and they are interesting, engaged, sharing and sometimes they are not worth my time of day but mostly like minded.

I'll stop, you just need a kick in the ass. xxoo

[Chik]

Becoming a parent completely changes one's life, but that's almost incidental. The fundamental thing is that people come and go, even those of one's blood. You should move on as they have because they are not your possessions and neither are you of theirs.

I grew up in a school where many kids left after a couple of years, even after one year as my best friend did, because of their parents being despatched to another country. I've lived in 8 or 9 cities across 5 or 6 countries. I have at times felt frustrated like you, but I learned that there is not much point to being frustrated. With some, it felt like only yesterday that we were hanging out and chewing the fat, but in fact, it's been like 30 years. With others, even though it's been just 1 or 2 years, I felt that I have nothing to say to them and they have nothing to say to me. And, there's everything in-between.

Personally, I've seen new significant others changing the relationship more than moving to another place.

They move on, you move on. It happens, and it won't be the last time. We tend to crave permanence, but it tends to be illusive, for better or worse.