assult automatic weapons....

[kytyree]

In what way does a European currently have liberty from fear of falling victim to violent crime?

Hogs are not being hunted per se in Texas, they are being exterminated. The species is invasive, destructive etc and the population exploding. The numbers of hogs I see here in my area are truly amazing. Not that I think hog infestation should have anything to do with any type of firearm regulations or lack thereof.

[guido]

And the only ones with guns will be the criminals (who typically don’t register or legally acquire guns) regardless of race, gender identity, religion, region, etc.

Hmm, I thought no one here was asking for a total ban?

At some point we need to weigh the interest of the society as a whole against a small minority who feels it necessary to pay with guns and have the capability to easily kill their fellow citizen. My copy constitution does not seem to have a provision for that...

Australia instituted very restrictive gun controls that after a bit of grumbling went very effectively and nearly eliminated mass shootings. It can be done. It needs to be done.
In the US we have over one mass shooting a day.

[Saab2000]

In what way does a European currently have liberty from fear of falling victim to violent crime?

Hogs are not being hunted per se in Texas, they are being exterminated. The species is invasive, destructive etc and the population exploding. The numbers of hogs I see here in my area are truly amazing. Not that I think hog infestation should have anything to do with any type of firearm regulations or lack thereof.

I agree with your observation on the hogs. It's not the same situation as hog hunting in Europe. They're invasive and destructive to agriculture.

But I am also in agreement with the European perspective of not understanding the need to be armed to the teeth to protect against violent crime. During my time in Europe (nearly 15 years in total) I never considered violent crime to be among my top concerns. Frankly, I don't in the US either. I live alone in a house and would be a candidate for owning a weapon but I choose not to do so. It's not really a conscious choice either. I didn't grow up with guns in the house and they're not really part of the fabric of my consciousness.

The Second Amendment in the US constitution was adopted in 1791 and while it says what it says and has been affirmed by the SCOTUS, the way it has been coopted by the gun lobby and paranoids is amazing. I don't think the writers of the Second Amendment envisioned automatic weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition.

[HarryBeast]

In what way does a European currently have liberty from fear of falling victim to violent crime?.

Just compare the respective rates for the US and Europe (or Japan, if you want to feel really anachronistic). Compared to you guys, we live in very civilzed, safe environments.

Weapons in private hands do not produce more security and liberty, they reduce them. If you must have them as a private person, because you hunt or shoot for sport, you should be checked before you can buy one. We are talking about instruments for killing here - of course their possession and use should be regulated.

[ron l edmiston]

-- $'s with greed and subjective goal/s can rationalize any and all..

-- fuck it.., i've used these weapons.., killed with these weapons.., had my ass shot up/down by these weapons --- "NO PLACE / NO HOW .., DOUBLE FUCK'N PERIOD.."

ronnie

[joosttx]

the thing with the chicago thing or "urban crime" is that there are moves to improve the problem... mandatory sentencing, increased police force, community activism. They may not work absolutely etc, etc and these steps taken are open for criticism but the are steps taken to address a problem. The probelm with assault weapons there seems to be no moves to fix the problem. That is why the outrage is happening.

So, now we as a country do the predicable emotional ‘dance’ to fool ourselves into believing we can fix humans from being humans.

Save your cliches, save your outrage. We as a country ignore a larger number of people murdered in a typical month in Chicago. Somehow that doesn’t warrant our attention or emotional and moral outrage. But this new event does because we are not descentized to its unique specifics yet? Give me a break.

[joosttx]

In what way does a European currently have liberty from fear of falling victim to violent crime?

Hogs are not being hunted per se in Texas, they are being exterminated. The species is invasive, destructive etc and the population exploding. The numbers of hogs I see here in my area are truly amazing. Not that I think hog infestation should have anything to do with any type of firearm regulations or lack thereof.

I have hog hunted in Texas on my Grandparents ranch since the age of 11. I will be the first to tell you you DO NOT need a semi automatic rifle to hunt hog , or a helicopter for that matter. I have killed 3 hogs in my life from the ages of 12 to 17 with a 243 rifle in a deer or tree stand. So, a grown-ass man (to quote Steve Harvey) shouldnt have a problem shooting a hog if a 12 year boy can with a standard rifle.

Also if you want to exterminate hogs because they are a problem. There are much better ways, like poisoning them, than using a semi- automatic weapon.

[davids]

The problem is completely and utterly obvious.

But there is a massive - and massively successful - lobbying organization that has prevented the United States from addressing this utterly obvious problem. This organization has been so overwhelmingly successful that, even when faced with yet another staggering tragedy, many of my fellow citizens can't bring themselves to acknowledge the blatant self-evident connection between guns and deaths by gun.

[guido]

With any privilege comes responsibility. The gun community has responsibility to make sure guns are used in a safe, reasonable fashion. They have failed miserably. In fact they have worked actively to enable the irresponsible use of guns. So they should loose the privilege.

[Scott G.]

Guy, the 2nd is a right not a privilege.
The 2nd as written in the USC is vague, the original versions are clear to intent and purpose. This from 1788 Virginia Ratifying Convention.
As written we would have a defence based on something similar to Swiss system today.

" 17th. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

[guido]

Guy, the 2nd is a right not a privilege.
The 2nd as written in the USC is vague, the original versions are clear to intent and purpose. This from 1788 Virginia Ratifying Convention.
As written we would have a defence based on something similar to Swiss system today.

" 17th. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

The USC was written when it took over a minute to load your flint lock between shots, when we had recently been focused on removing a foreign power from the land. Lots of provisions in that quoted passage seem to be gleefully ignored.

But things have changed slightly since the USC was written... Approximately 1.4 million people have been killed using firearms in the U.S. between 1968 and 2011, equivalent to a top 10 largest U.S. city in 2016, falling between the populations of San Antonio and Dallas, Texas. In 2010, gun violence cost U.S. taxpayers approximately $516 million in direct hospital costs.

[Matthew J]

As written we would have a defence based on something similar to Swiss system today.

1. But that did not get made into law.

2. The Swiss system involves rather strict government registration and monitoring guns which does not exist here.

[kytyree]

shouldnt have a problem shooting a hog if a 12 year boy can with a standard rifle.

Also if you want to exterminate hogs because they are a problem. There are much better ways, like poisoning them, than using a semi- automatic weapon.

I was only pointing out that the hogs aren't really being hunted per se but exterminated. I am not advocating for or against anything in relation to hog shooting.

I'd personally just as soon they didn't poison them though, as they live in the same places here that the cattle I like to eat do, and are often standing in or near water like creeks, rivers or using the same water tanks that the herds drink from. But this is an entirely different subject from the one at hand.

[GrantM]

Australia instituted very restrictive gun controls that after a bit of grumbling went very effectively and nearly eliminated mass shootings. It can be done. It needs to be done.

The Australia example comes up all the time, but from what i've read, only 20% of the guns were bought back during the program.
(At the heart of the push was a massive buyback of more than 600,000 semi-automatic shotguns and rifles, or about one-fifth of all firearms in circulation in Australia.)
Australia enacted strict gun control laws after a horrific mass shooting in 1996. It worked.

For some reason, the other 80% haven't caused a problem... but i think it's a mistake to assume you can eliminate mass shootings
in the USA by reducing the total number of guns in the possession of law-abiding citizens. Something else is at work.
THere are still 30 guns for every 100 people in Australia.

[joosttx]

I was only pointing out that the hogs aren't really being hunted per se but exterminated. I am not advocating for or against anything in relation to hog shooting.

I'd personally just as soon they didn't poison them though, as they live in the same places here that the cattle I like to eat do, and are often standing in or near water like creeks, rivers or using the same water tanks that the herds drink from. But this is an entirely different subject from the one at hand.

Wasnt targeted at you. Just piling on the asurbity of needing a semi-auto for pig exterminating.

[Vandenberg]

T
THere are still 30 guns for every 100 people in Australia.

Every single one of the owners of these guns had to pass a rigorous background check, with pretty strict conditions placed on each purchase. eg: want it for shooting at a range? It stays locked at the range (with some exceptions). eg: you're a farmer who needs it for shooting roos/rabbits/vermin? Prove it, and show us your gun safe.

Every time one of these big massacres happens the rest of the civilised world just sits back and shakes their head: while in the USA even places of intelligent discourse (ie here) devolve into arguments about semi-autos and hog shooting.
My 2c: the genie is out of the bottle in the US. You have 300,000,000+ guns already in circulation: a buyback isn't feasible. Getting any sort of national gun legislation in place would be a nice start, but the NRA/gun nuts in congress will fight that to the wire. State-based laws are also good, but with 100% permeable internal borders what good are they really?

FWIW, I'm pretty happy to live in Australia. I dunno what you USA-based folks are gonna do, but I hope it's something.

[ides1056]

I agree with, or at least understand, the rest of your statement but I think this is one of those givens that needs to be examined. Why allow semi-autos in hunting, except to compensate for a lack of skill? How does the ability to put more bullets in the air square with responsible hunting?

Someone might have already addressed this. A semi-auto shotgun is a great bird gun. Five shot capacity is limited by law to three, or it was when I was still hunting. If you've ever hunted quail you'd know just how useful the third shot is. They are used for deer hunting for the same reason. It's never a question of putting more shot into the air. Double barrel shotguns are older technology. Single shot is what you learn on.

As for pig exterminating: my grandparents had a ranch in the Santa Ynez. Feral pigs were a problem: proliferating and digging up the alfalfa fields. Every summer the foreman's pals from West Texas would come and we'd spend three or four days killing pigs, using bolt-action rifles with scopes. I think they had five shot magazines. You don't sneak up on pigs. They are very smart, and in rough chaparral hard to spot.

[GrantM]

Every single one of the owners of these guns had to pass a rigorous background check, with pretty strict conditions placed on each purchase. eg: want it for shooting at a range? It stays locked at the range (with some exceptions). eg: you're a farmer who needs it for shooting roos/rabbits/vermin? Prove it, and show us your gun safe.

That's the legal ones. In Canada, gangs buy illegal guns, and they aren't subject to any rigorous checks or conditions.
It seems to me the regulations are for the honest people. As you said, in the USA, I don't know that this can keep them out of hands
of people who shouldn't have them.

The other frightening trend here is that clearly some of these people who want to kill a bunch of civilians, but haven't had access or money
to get guns, so they've stolen trucks, cars, or vans and drove into crowds. That's now a "thing" too, and once these things spread,
they become more likely to keep happening.

-g

[Saab2000]

Guy, the 2nd is a right not a privilege.
The 2nd as written in the USC is vague, the original versions are clear to intent and purpose. This from 1788 Virginia Ratifying Convention.
As written we would have a defence based on something similar to Swiss system today.

" 17th. That the people have a right to keep and bear arms; that a well-regulated militia, composed of the body of the people trained to arms, is the proper, natural, and safe defence of a free state; that standing armies, in time of peace, are dangerous to liberty, and therefore ought to be avoided, as far as the circumstances and protection of the community will admit; and that, in all cases, the military should be under strict subordination to, and governed by, the civil power."

I like it when Switzerland is brought up as an example. There are similarities in the federal structure but there is little or no gun culture there. The idea that all people have automatic weapons at home is interesting. The home in which I lived had them, untouched between mandatory range exercises.

They keep guns at home. They don't keep ammunition at home.

Swiss folks obsess about work and relationships and people and making money and sports and music and skiing and cycling and pretty much everything except guns. At least that was my observation.

[Vandenberg]

That's the legal ones. In Canada, gangs buy illegal guns, and they aren't subject to any rigorous checks or conditions.
It seems to me the regulations are for the honest people.

Thing is, if you can restrict access to legal guns, it also restricts access to illegal guns (via theft or whatever). But as noted, that train has sailed for the USA. Even if the most stringent laws in the world were introduced tomorrow it wouldn't get rid of the 300 million guns that are out there already.
And of course regulations are for the honest people. All the laws in the world won't stop people killing/stealing/raping, but that's no reason to not at least try to save some lives. The Australian government could've said "oh hey, there's so many guns out there, what's the point", but instead they introduced legislation, bought back over a million guns, and made a start at stopping gun deaths. The US government doesn't even want to do that, instead offering thoughts and prayers, and admonitions to not politicise the issue.

But yeah, you reckon anything is going to happen at all? Ever? Or will the NRA-backed government just keep kicking the can down the road? I reckon the latter.