The world is officially upside down.

[caleb]

IF he walks over the constituion, he will be in a weak spot. Am I wrong?

In normal times, you are correct. The US generally has strong institutions and a difficult amendment process.

The danger I see is not a steady progression of authoritarianism through the normal order, but the invocation of a state of emergency to grab extraordinary powers once the normal order is discredited and delegitimated.

While the Constitution and the Judiciary do fairly effectively constrain the Executive during normal time, that has not always been the case in times of war or emergency. Civil War era precedent like Ex parte McCardle (1869) allows for the effective detention of American citizens on US soil without trial, a precedent qualified but partially reaffirmed during the War on Terror, especially in Hamdi v. Rumsfeld (2004). And given that President Trump will have a cooperative Congress, we should not assume that conventionally limiting case law like Youngstown Sheet and Tube (1952) will be applied to any unilateral actions he takes.

[nick k]

When people's constitutional rights have been withheld or abused, at the hands of government or police, they need the actions of a court to gain remedy and redress. That takes time and money, and even if you have those luxuries or can muster them on your behalf, justice may still be elusive and late. Yes, amending the US Constitution is a tremendous political burden, but trampling on the rights of an individual citizen or minority group is breathtakingly simple as even the most well-funded and organized opposition can be mired for years in legal arguments working their way through the judicial system. Because the targets are easy, the political upshot so tempting, and the consequences of reversal so meaningless, assaults on voting rights, access to reproductive healthcare, and unreasonable incarceration go effectively unchecked.

I'm not a constitutional scholar, but the thing was signed a mile from my house. There were more swastikas painted on a playground around the corner from us this week. My wife is brown, and Jewish, and we are afraid.

[Dallas Tex]

Indulge me in a bit of bunker-mentality catastrophizing for the moment. Sometimes it's worth being mentally prepared for the worst, even if you're hoping for the best.

Walk with me for a (too long) bit and be suspicious of power with me. Imagine the possibility that we may have elected someone with authoritarian tendencies to the White House. If that were the case, how would we act, and how would we know that we had crossed a line from the normally constituted order into an extra-constitutional order?

Marsha Gessen's new article in the New York Review of books takes us some distance there: Autocracy: Rules for Survival | by Masha Gessen | NYR Daily | The New York Review of Books

Here are her rules for surviving an autocracy from the article:



Gessen comes from a background of dealing with established autocracies, where citizens are more political price-takers than price-setters, and that's not the American context. Americans have the mixed blessing of not being accustomed to autocrats: mixed because it's good we haven't had to go through it, but bad because we may be unskilled in recognizing them.

So, perhaps, it's worth while to think about how we would recognize an autocracy, should it (heaven forbid) ever emerge, and how we might respond. If we look at the emergence of autocratic/authoritarian/fascist/totalitarian regimes (not to equate those categories, but to recognize the potential progression) from the perspective of citizen response, I think we can broadly periodize courses of action given the phases of autocracy into (1) Fight, (2) Run, and (3) Die Well.

(1) Fight. The first phases of an autocratic regime are (a) the dissemination of propaganda, (b) censorship of the press and/or the citizenry, and (c) the use of mass rallies to energize the ruler's base and create an illusion of widespread public support. They may not occur in this order, but all have been historically necessary to shore up the power of the autocrat. This phase has been effectively resisted through legal and extra legal methods, so fighting back seems a prudent choice.

(2) Run. The second phase is the persecution of scapegoated minorities and the disappearance of dissenting elites. At this point, living as a public person in dissent is no longer possible, and running is a reasonable course of action because the institutions and practices of resistance have been eroded.

(3) Die well. The third phase is the declaration of some sort of emergency that allows the ruler to suspend the constitution and/or the rule of law. From the perspective of the citizen, the initial hope is to still make it out, and the other apparent hope is to shut up and hide. The end of this phase is to take hold of one's life and choose the spin it takes all the way to the backstop.

All of the above proceeds as bald assertion in order to avoid boring everyone, but I expect that anyone familiar with the histories of Germany, Italy, Japan, Argentina, the Philippines, and/or Spain will see some of these broad phases present in those cases.

None of this is to accuse Trump preemptively of being a monster. It's only, in the spirit of Montesquieu, to be suspicious of power and always prepared for the worst.

By imagining the worst possible world that goes all the way into the dark, my hope is that while living in a world well short of that darkness we might recognize our own moment correctly and act appropriately.

The catastrophizing I've done above - esp #3 - might seem off the wall, but we've dealt with all of this darkness in (barely) living memory. It is real and it is possible. I think preparing for the possibility of its revival makes us better citizens.

I read this 3 times before I realized you were talking about the next eight years and not the past eight years, no kidding.

"(1) Fight. The first phases of an autocratic regime are (a) the dissemination of propaganda, (b) censorship of the press and/or the citizenry, and (c) the use of mass rallies to energize the ruler's base and create an illusion of widespread public support. They may not occur in this order, but all have been historically necessary to shore up the power of the autocrat. This phase has been effectively resisted through legal and extra legal methods, so fighting back seems a prudent choice."
a) I've seen more propaganda come out of the left than the right lately. Near every news source was feverishly trying to convince the public that the election would go the other way, being more cheerleaders of the cause than journalists.

b) I've seen WAAAAAAY more censorship being pushed by the left. Speech codes at Universities?!?? Encouraging students to inform on other students they feel aren't in agreement. Rapid Response Squads to address any non-approved speech & enforce penalties. The former bastions of the free & open exchange of ideas have become an enemy of free expression.

c) have you seen the mass rallies in Portland and other places? Have you seen the video of folks getting pulled from their cars, accused of voting for trump, and beaten???


"(2) Run. The second phase is the persecution of scapegoated minorities and the disappearance of dissenting elites. At this point, living as a public person in dissent is no longer possible, and running is a reasonable course of action because the institutions and practices of resistance have been eroded."
I think ALL people feel scapegoated. There was a college professor quoted as saying she won't have a baby because it would just add another white person. When did that become a bad thing? "....the disappearance of dissenting elites" How many college professors & administrators have 'disappeared' and been forced out by mob mentality for not being progressive enough?? 'Living is dissent is no longer possible'. At many universities its not possible.

(3) Die well. The third phase is the declaration of some sort of emergency that allows the ruler to suspend the constitution and/or the rule of law. From the perspective of the citizen, the initial hope is to still make it out, and the other apparent hope is to shut up and hide. The end of this phase is to take hold of one's life and choose the spin it takes all the way to the backstop.
"....declaration of some sort of emergency that allows the ruler to suspend the constitution" I see parallels. Gun Violence is sooooo bad we have to take away your constitutional right to bear arms. Racism is so bad we have to suspend your right to free speech.


Please take this as it was intended. I don't want to argue. I'm not trying to 'win' this discussion.

[davids]

Nobodies perfect:

White House Adviser Van Jones Resigns Amid Controversy Over Past Activism | 44 | washingtonpost.com

If Trump makes bad choices, things can change without taking to the streets.

Can we please not use the faults of others to excuse Bannon's faults?

"...taking to the streets"... Can you clarify? Are you referring to the right of the people to assemble? To speak freely (a right I would not take away from Bannon, btw.)? To petition the government for a redress of grievances?

[davids]

When people's constitutional rights have been withheld or abused, at the hands of government or police, they need the actions of a court to gain remedy and redress. That takes time and money, and even if you have those luxuries or can muster them on your behalf, justice may still be elusive and late. Yes, amending the US Constitution is a tremendous political burden, but trampling on the rights of an individual citizen or minority group is breathtakingly simple as even the most well-funded and organized opposition can be mired for years in legal arguments working their way through the judicial system. Because the targets are easy, the political upshot so tempting, and the consequences of reversal so meaningless, assaults on voting rights, access to reproductive healthcare, and unreasonable incarceration go effectively unchecked.

I'm not a constitutional scholar, but the thing was signed a mile from my house. There were more swastikas painted on a playground around the corner from us this week. My wife is brown, and Jewish, and we are afraid.

This is horrible to hear. As Americans, we cannot allow that kind of thing to become acceptable. It needs to be fought at every step, in every instance.

Nearly as infuriating as these acts are the apologist who, rather than condemn them outright - full stop - try to cast doubt on whether there are more of them occurring. Rather than calling out the perpetrators as hateful and bigoted they call out the media reporting the incidents as biased. That's some skillful bullshit.

I don't know for sure if there's been a spike in hate crimes since the election. I do know that our President Elect just appointed a guy responsible for disseminating racist, antisemitic, and misogynist stories and statement to be one of his chief strategic advisors.

I'm a Jew. I'm going to be acting against Bannon's appointment. I'm going to be working to fight this hate. It is utterly absolutely wrong and cannot stand unchallenged.

[becomingblue]

I have a feeling there is going to be long and ongoing list of individuals whose appointments/nominations will be protested and challenged. Just like over the last 8 years and, hell, I'm not that old, but likely over the past 100 years. And I'm all for it. But if you hate Donald Trump, I've seen him referred to as a "mother fucker" in this thread, it's likely you're going to hate anything and everything he does ongoing.

[Bob Ross]

But if you hate Donald Trump, I've seen him referred to as a "mother fucker" in this thread, it's likely you're going to hate anything and everything he does ongoing.

Yes, after an election rife with so much outright bald-faced lying I think it's important to get our facts straight:

He's a "daughter fucker"

[davids]

I have a feeling there is going to be long and ongoing list of individuals whose appointments/nominations will be protested and challenged. Just like over the last 8 years and, hell, I'm not that old, but likely over the past 100 years. And I'm all for it. But if you hate Donald Trump, I've seen him referred to as a "mother fucker" in this thread, it's likely you're going to hate anything and everything he does ongoing.

I may have been that guy... I'm not going back to check.

I wish him well as President. More specifically, I wish our country well. I will support his actions when I agree, fight them when I don't. And fight against him if (and only if) it gets to that point.

He's a repugnant man. That isn't the point anymore.

[Corso]

The United States of America is the United States of America.

We are not a European or South American country.

Frankly, I find the comparisons do not apply. We’ll always be part of the world’s economy, the fear of us becoming isolated is unrealistic.

Trump: He’ll break campaign promises and will become a true politician. If he gets out of control as many are afraid of, the rest of the system will keep him in check. He was a Democrat, the Republican guard doesn’t like him, so everyone will watching very carefully. No one seems to give him much respect, so he’ll be attacked without hesitation.

He’s got plenty to fix before trying to amend the constitution. I’m not convinced he’s going to try. But, I still feel we have to wait to see what he does before the panicking.

AND all those college students & faculty who are using play-dough and coloring books to deal with the election, taking time off etc, etc need to harden the f up. Soldiers their age are losing limbs overseas, and they are crying about losing the chance to say Madam President?
All those high school kids walking out (who can’t even vote yet), need to realize they are only cheating themselves. Having the Left so embedded in our educational system from pre-school to college is what’s truly frightening to me.

[colker]

The United States of America is the United States of America.

We are not a European or South American country.

Frankly, I find the comparisons do not apply. We’ll always be part of the world’s economy, the fear of us becoming isolated is unrealistic.

Trump: He’ll break campaign promises and will become a true politician. If he gets out of control as many are afraid of, the rest of the system will keep him in check. He was a Democrat, the Republican guard doesn’t like him, so everyone will watching very carefully. No one seems to give him much respect, so he’ll be attacked without hesitation.

He’s got plenty to fix before trying to amend the constitution. I’m not convinced he’s going to try. But, I still feel we have to wait to see what he does before the panicking.

AND all those college students & faculty who are using play-dough and coloring books to deal with the election, taking time off etc, etc need to harden the f up. Soldiers their age are losing limbs overseas, and they are crying about losing the chance to say Madam President?
All those high school kids walking out (who can’t even vote yet), need to realize they are only cheating themselves. Having the Left so embedded in our educational system from pre-school to college is what’s truly frightening to me.

The US did have an impeachment before when a president f* up... A republican who stepped on freedoms and rights so there we go.
As for isolation, one of the major political knots is the military spending and even worse.. boots on the ground in f* up places so that the planet's power balance don't get shifted. What to do in the face of those localized wars? They are not about the economy only.. they are about western democracy hegemony. It's complicated.

[nick k]

"....declaration of some sort of emergency that allows the ruler to suspend the constitution" I see parallels. Gun Violence is sooooo bad we have to take away your constitutional right to bear arms. Racism is so bad we have to suspend your right to free speech.


Please take this as it was intended. I don't want to argue. I'm not trying to 'win' this discussion.

I'm pretty sure he's talking about the suspension of the Writ of Habeus Corpus, which has happened nationally only a handful of times since the Civil War, most recently and controversially during the Bush administration and the "War on Terror". The Writ allows an individual to challenge unlawful detention, and the Constitution explicitly provides a mechanism for the government to suspend those rights under specific and extreme circumstances. I'm challenged by the equation of the suspension of something like the Writ of Habeus Corpus, which is a monumental tenet of American Constitutional and English Common Law as well as international human rights for centuries, with, say, attempts to ban assault weapons or to curtail certain types of hate crimes.

[Corso]

Can we please not use the faults of others to excuse Bannon's faults?

"...taking to the streets"... Can you clarify? Are you referring to the right of the people to assemble? To speak freely (a right I would not take away from Bannon, btw.)? To petition the government for a redress of grievances?

I believe I’ve been hearing 8 years the excuse “it’s Bush’s fault”… correct?

Ok, not all of these recent protest have been non-violent, and you know that.

We have the right to assemble, but NOT the right to block public roads while doing so, which nearly all of the recent protest have done, thus breaking the law. No one is arrested for that, but what the hell, being in the country illegally isn’t breaking the law either.

Large street protest: An inconvenience to others, makes cities staff more police, firefighters and 1st responders, costing taxpayers more money-by diverting already tight budgets. Maybe they should send the overtime bill directly to Soros, as he’s paying for the events anyway.

Protesting the results of a FAIR election simply because your side didn’t win is childish. I can only hope massive hunger strikes will follow, but no, that takes real commitment.

Yes, we have the rights to do so, but that doesn’t mean you have to.

[spopepro]

The United States of America is the United States of America.

We are not a European or South American country.

Frankly, I find the comparisons do not apply. We’ll always be part of the world’s economy, the fear of us becoming isolated is unrealistic.

Trump: He’ll break campaign promises and will become a true politician. If he gets out of control as many are afraid of, the rest of the system will keep him in check. He was a Democrat, the Republican guard doesn’t like him, so everyone will watching very carefully. No one seems to give him much respect, so he’ll be attacked without hesitation.

He’s got plenty to fix before trying to amend the constitution. I’m not convinced he’s going to try. But, I still feel we have to wait to see what he does before the panicking.

AND all those college students & faculty who are using play-dough and coloring books to deal with the election, taking time off etc, etc need to harden the f up. Soldiers their age are losing limbs overseas, and they are crying about losing the chance to say Madam President?
All those high school kids walking out (who can’t even vote yet), need to realize they are only cheating themselves. Having the Left so embedded in our educational system from pre-school to college is what’s truly frightening to me.

Check yourself Corso before speaking for veterans, or using them for your personal argument capital. I'm writing on behalf of my E-7 wife who recently came back from an overseas deployment. She also happens to have a terminal degree in Theatre, works for a cultural non-profit... and she's not alone. This isn't just another new boss. Commanders at all levels have come and gone, some good, some bad, some she has agreed with, some she hasn't, but she's always taken pride in her job and served with absolute integrity. She's struggling massively with what her oath now means, and so are many of her peers and superiors in the service. My university classroom, which happens to this term be around 90% GI bill vets, and about half of them also collecting VA disability after being injured in the line of duty (due to various circumstances our university attracts and serves veterans at a very high rate) are struggling to make meaning of this. They wouldn't appreciate your patronizing characterization of their struggle either.

[davids]

I believe I’ve been hearing 8 years the excuse “it’s Bush’s fault”… correct?

Ok, not all of these recent protest have been non-violent, and you know that.

We have the right to assemble, but NOT the right to block public roads while doing so, which nearly all of the recent protest have done, thus breaking the law. No one is arrested for that, but what the hell, being in the country illegally isn’t breaking the law either.

Large street protest: An inconvenience to others, makes cities staff more police, firefighters and 1st responders, costing taxpayers more money-by diverting already tight budgets. Maybe they should send the overtime bill directly to Soros, as he’s paying for the events anyway.

Protesting the results of a FAIR election simply because your side didn’t win is childish. I can only hope massive hunger strikes will follow, but no, that takes real commitment.

Yes, we have the rights to do so, but that doesn’t mean you have to.

You, of course, realize you just used the exact same deflection strategy twice in a row? - setting up the straw dog of GWB-bashing to, yet again, avoid even mentioning Stephen Bannon.

I'm glad to see that we can agree that the vast majority of the recent protests have been non-violent. But...

• You just equated a protest spilling out into the street with illegal immigration?
• And condemned these peaceful mass protests as a threat to public safety and local budgets because so many people showed up that they stepped off sidewalks?
• And claimed that George Soros is "paying for" these protests because they've been organized by MoveOn, a group he supports? That one sounds like something straight out of the Alt Right playbook to me. Why not just say the protest are being funded by a Gobal Cabal of International Bankers, and get those antisemetic dog whistles screeching?

I am sure that there are people out there protesting this election result as unfair. I have seen people say, without proof, that tens of thousands of voters were unable to vote in PA. Unless I see some significant evidence, that sounds to me like a wild conspiracy theory.

But I am betting that just as many are out there as a statement of solidarity, and expression of anguish, that this horrible man was elected. Calling people "childish" for exercising their right to assemble, speak, and protest is just wrong.

[defspace]

Having the Left so embedded in our educational system from pre-school to college is what’s truly frightening to me.

Honest, straight-forward question - how did this come to pass?

[nick k]

AND all those college students & faculty who are using play-dough and coloring books to deal with the election, taking time off etc, etc need to harden the f up.

It's so easy for this conversation to devolve into this kind of tone. Please resist this temptation. I'm learning from this thread, as I hope others are. What you describe above was widely criticized in the alt-right web space, including Breitbart "reporting" about the University of Pennsylvania. What you might not know is that African American students at the UPenn were targeted 5 days ago by a student in Oklahoma. He added the Penn students without their knowledge to a calendar on a popular social media app that was called "Daily N***er Lynching" complete with photos. Many believed they were seeing the dates they would be targeted to be killed on their smart phones. I don't know any of the students personally, but some of the faculty are colleagues and they describe the psychological trauma as absolutely devastating. If "play dough and coloring books" help them, then that's what they need.

[Todd Amunrud]

Here's how our world gets turned upside down. My wife helps students navigate the financial system for post secondary education. All students come from a certain level of poverty and a good majority are DACA students. She's not only worried about her students, many who are close to finishing in 1-2 years, she'll also likely lose her job. Sadly she lost her job in 2001 after 9/11. Then she was helping resettle refugees. Mostly "Lost Boys" from Sudan.

[colker]

You, of course, realize you just used the exact same deflection strategy twice in a row? - setting up the straw dog of GWB-bashing to, yet again, avoid even mentioning Stephen Bannon.

I'm glad to see that we can agree that the vast majority of the recent protests have been non-violent. But...

• You just equated a protest spilling out into the street with illegal immigration?
• And condemned these peaceful mass protests as a threat to public safety and local budgets because so many people showed up that they stepped off sidewalks?
• And claimed that George Soros is "paying for" these protests because they've been organized by MoveOn, a group he supports? That one sounds like something straight out of the Alt Right playbook to me. Why not just say the protest are being funded by a Gobal Cabal of International Bankers, and get those antisemetic dog whistles screeching?

I am sure that there are people out there protesting this election result as unfair. I have seen people say, without proof, that tens of thousands of voters were unable to vote in PA. Unless I see some significant evidence, that sounds to me like a wild conspiracy theory.

But I am betting that just as many are out there as a statement of solidarity, and expression of anguish, that this horrible man was elected. Calling people "childish" for exercising their right to assemble, speak, and protest is just wrong.

Ok.. ok... there was an election. If the candidate could not win then he should not be allowed to compete but he was a legitimate contestant no matter how repulsive is his stance. Protesters are disrupting traffic.. Why? Suppose white suprematists built barricades when Obama won.. because Obama was repugnant under their philosophy.. How would we describe those actions?
Either Trump is inneligible due to his ideas or everyone has to accept he won. what legitimacy would have Hillary under this logic? i will only accept an elected president w/ this and that idea.
I know Trump promoted dangerous attitudes w/ his campaign.. i know fascism arrived in power in the 30s through elections but so far Trump has not burnt down the Reichstag yet.

[Scott G.]

[snip]
I know Trump promoted dangerous attitudes w/ his campaign.. i know fascism arrived in power in the 30s through elections but so far Trump has not burnt down the Reichstag yet.

Which is why I think objecting to Bannon is counter productive, let the Pres-Elect prove himself by what he actually tries to push
thru Congress. Right now we are in the traditional sound & fury signifying nothing phase of the interregnum.

"Don't divide the world into 'them' and 'us.'
Avoid infatuation with or resentment of the press,
the Congress, rivals, or opponents. Accept them as facts.
They have their jobs and you have yours."
Donald Rumsfeld

[Corso]

Check yourself Corso before speaking for veterans, or using them for your personal argument capital. I'm writing on behalf of my E-7 wife who recently came back from an overseas deployment. She also happens to have a terminal degree in Theatre, works for a cultural non-profit... and she's not alone. This isn't just another new boss. Commanders at all levels have come and gone, some good, some bad, some she has agreed with, some she hasn't, but she's always taken pride in her job and served with absolute integrity. She's struggling massively with what her oath now means, and so are many of her peers and superiors in the service. My university classroom, which happens to this term be around 90% GI bill vets, and about half of them also collecting VA disability after being injured in the line of duty (due to various circumstances our university attracts and serves veterans at a very high rate) are struggling to make meaning of this. They wouldn't appreciate your patronizing characterization of their struggle either.

Consider me checked.

The comparison I was trying to make was one of maturity level between a college-age student crying about the election outcome and skipping classes, and a college-age soldier who are making life changing sacrifices.

I have nothing but RESPECT for anyone and everyone who serves in the armed forces.

I did not say vets were either for or against Trump, and did not mean to politicize or patronize veterans. I would never patronize veterans.
In fact, I’ve done some work for the New England Center for homeless Veterans.

I apologize if that’s how it was interpreted, it’s truly not how I meant it.