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Thread: The world is officially upside down.

  1. #181
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Really people? Short term memories here.

    Katie Pavlich: Obama’s anti-police ideology | TheHill

    Obama fuels the flames of the anti-cop movement | New York Post

    Sheriff Clarke: Obama Poured The Gasoline That Started The Fire In Dallas

    Police group director: Obama caused a 'war on cops' - POLITICO


    Talk to any Police officers? I have. Many. They feel the president wasn’t supporting them.

    Again, Trump never said go out and attack minorities. Obama never said go out and attack the police. So hold both to the same standard of influence.

    And it was the left that sent instigators to start trouble at the Trump rallies to prod Trump to respond. Well, they got what they asked for.
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  2. #182
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Honestly I think the president elect is the next Woodrow Wilson. A hundred years and two generations have not taught us much.
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  3. #183
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Really people? Short term memories here.

    Katie Pavlich: Obama’s anti-police ideology | TheHill

    Obama fuels the flames of the anti-cop movement | New York Post

    Sheriff Clarke: Obama Poured The Gasoline That Started The Fire In Dallas

    Police group director: Obama caused a 'war on cops' - POLITICO


    Talk to any Police officers? I have. Many. They feel the president wasn’t supporting them.

    Again, Trump never said go out and attack minorities. Obama never said go out and attack the police. So hold both to the same standard of influence.

    And it was the left that sent instigators to start trouble at the Trump rallies to prod Trump to respond. Well, they got what they asked for.

    how do you define "left" in the US? ;))) democrats are left... ? ;)))

    no, Trump did never say go out and attack minorities ... he wanted to punch people into their face, knock out the crap or their face and other stuff...
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  4. #184
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    yes, of course he will bring back the jobs from Russia

    Donald Trump: Warum weisse Manner ihn gewahlt haben -Video - SPIEGEL ONLINE
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Really people? .
    Again, with respect for your POV and the others'--there's nothing to gain by citing arguments from the conservative info bubble in an attempt to refute the liberal info bubble or vice versa. Katie Hill and Michael Goodwin are clear partisans. Police chiefs and police organization mouthpieces speaking on Fox News are aware of tilt of the stage they're on and do not necessarily speak to all of the facts, or for officers on the streets. These are commentators using media outlets as levers for influence, just as you could say about sources and outlets on the left.

    What's needed is to look at what Obama and Trump actually said. Their words, not words about them. I admit my liberal bias but I find Trump's statements to be incomparable to Obama's.
    Dan Fuller, local bicycle enthusiast
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  6. #186
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Really people? Short term memories here...
    You've posted four opinion pieces that, to my quick reading, do not quote anything Obama said with the exception of "These are not isolated incidents... they are symptomatic of a broader set of racial disparities that exist in our criminal justice system” and then go on to opine how such statements fuel anti-police violence for the BLM movement. Such a statement is hardly inflammatory.

    There are racial disparities that exist in the criminal justice system, and saying so doesn't condone violence against police. I'll grant that Obama said some careless things when Gates was arrested in Cambridge in 2009, but I'm still waiting to hear quotes from Obama that could be taken as evidence that he abetted violence against law enforcement. Short of saying "law enforcement is 100% right all the time, and I stand behind them no matter what" what's he supposed to say?

    Find me a statement from Obama that condones or encourages or even tangentially hints at violence against police, and I will stand corrected.
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  7. #187
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Let’s get this straight right off the bat. Republican does not automatically equal racist. But there is a reason why some see it a short leap to get to that conclusion, rightfully or wrongfully. And it is my personal belief that Trump won mainly on economics. Truthfully, both parties let the common man/woman go down and pandered to their payers, corporations. But let’s shine a light on the racist slant some here can’t seem to understand how it got attached mainly to one party.

    To those who cannot understand why the “media”, oh, that slanted to one side media (not Fox, they aren’t biased, right?) shows reports about racist acts by Republicans is because they exist. Arizona’s Sheriff Arpaio and his driving with brown skin law, Maine’s Governor Paul LePage’s racist rant (I won’t recap what he said here, for we are a civil lot and thus need not sully the room) was epic. And then there’s the Republican nominee, now President elect, his words that cannot be washed aside out of hand. He said them and he meant them. So the brand has the stain it earned. And Trump knows image and the fact that it worked is worrisome to anyone who cares for a civil society.

    If you’re cannot see racism, congratulations, you arrived where some cannot ever go due to what you are. If you cannot feel racism, you are blessed, or numb to it or live in an environment where it hasn’t flourished out in the open. Let me tell you from a personal perspective how it is acted out and how it feels. It happens in common areas like gas stations, stores and on the job. In the store, you’ll have a man run into your child, walk right into them, bumping them out of the way. Or they will let the door go and spring back on your child. And as a parent, when you react to those prompts against your child harshly, oh my, what an aggressive and dangerous person YOU are. Coughing is a thing. Just cough on you when you’re in line or passing close by. If in a group, some get embolden to actually taunt you out loud. Like the Bob Seger song, Turn The Page, “you always seem outnumbered, you don’t dare take a stand”. And if you react, the question they will pose to you is, “what did you say to these guys to piss them off?”. Because surely YOU were the aggressor, you alone against all these guys. So in turn you will be overly policed as you’re antagonized in to situations and found guilty on site. “Oh how sensitive you are with your political correctness”.

    Some near me have taken to flying huge rebel flags from the bed of their trucks. Nothing wrong with that, oh wait, they just gave is the finger, nice. Trump flags have been seen on these same vehicles, hence his brand is “their” brand, therefore not my brand, nor the brand of a nation of immigrants. Remember that that whole melting pot schtick you were sold in school? Funny, ain’t it?

    At work I’m points down right from the start. I have proven to a manager I report to how upper management evaluates a situation depending on the skin color of the people involved. Something bad happens, I show my manager that it was a coworker working on that process. Upper management comes in the next day and thinks I’m involved and say that the actions followed were wrong. My manager corrects them and shows who made the calls and they say he did everything right. Nice.
    A manager sees a group of people of color talking, they are screwing off, lazy, costing the company money. Same manager sees his fair skinned friends in the same department talking for twenty minutes and not only is it OK, heck, he may join in. So I can expect to be micromanaged and seen as less than even when there is documentation to the contrary.

    So for those who don’t know, being intimidated, over policed and micro managed is how racism feels.

    How do you deal with it? Through humor, philosophy and a long view of life. Small battles come and go, it’s the end game that matters. Make the house payment, raise the child and love the family. Minimize the contact with, the impact of and influence carried by those who wish you harm. I make it work. By doing this I have actually gotten to know people who are just full of hate, to know them, talk to them and find some common ground. What I’ve found is that we share some moral values (shocker!), some opinions about education, national defense, health care, taxes and commercial trade. We are exactly the same on some things and we love our families and work hard. I find it a shame that something so crass divides us. To live in a bigger world, I engage them and like with nuts, you take out the goody and shuck the rest. I do this on internet forums too. I’ll call out elitist a racist crap that occurs, sure, but I’ll talk bikes, cars, philosophy, ice cream with anyone who cares to talk about it. For in all but the shallowest among has something of worth to share and I want to be open to it.

    Trump won on a hateful platform but the jist of the angst of the majority of Americans is that we got hung out to dry in the globalization of our economy. And with that I agree wholeheartedly. I just wish he were a much, much stronger vessel with less hatred for others. It’s early in the game and we have no way of knowing how this experiment will turn out, but let’s start with ourselves and debate vigorously while still being able to share thoughts and ride together. We don’t have to love each other but we will miss so much and achieve so much less if we close doors. My door is always open. Unless you’re a complete jerk.
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  8. #188
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
    Let’s get this straight right off the bat. Republican does not automatically equal racist. But there is a reason why some see it a short leap to get to that conclusion, rightfully or wrongfully. And it is my personal belief that Trump won mainly on economics. Truthfully, both parties let the common man/woman go down and pandered to their payers, corporations. But let’s shine a light on the racist slant some here can’t seem to understand how it got attached mainly to one party.

    To those who cannot understand why the “media”, oh, that slanted to one side media (not Fox, they aren’t biased, right?) shows reports about racist acts by Republicans is because they exist. Arizona’s Sheriff Arpaio and his driving with brown skin law, Maine’s Governor Paul LePage’s racist rant (I won’t recap what he said here, for we are a civil lot and thus need not sully the room) was epic. And then there’s the Republican nominee, now President elect, his words that cannot be washed aside out of hand. He said them and he meant them. So the brand has the stain it earned. And Trump knows image and the fact that it worked is worrisome to anyone who cares for a civil society.

    If you’re cannot see racism, congratulations, you arrived where some cannot ever go due to what you are. If you cannot feel racism, you are blessed, or numb to it or live in an environment where it hasn’t flourished out in the open. Let me tell you from a personal perspective how it is acted out and how it feels. It happens in common areas like gas stations, stores and on the job. In the store, you’ll have a man run into your child, walk right into them, bumping them out of the way. Or they will let the door go and spring back on your child. And as a parent, when you react to those prompts against your child harshly, oh my, what an aggressive and dangerous person YOU are. Coughing is a thing. Just cough on you when you’re in line or passing close by. If in a group, some get embolden to actually taunt you out loud. Like the Bob Seger song, Turn The Page, “you always seem outnumbered, you don’t dare take a stand”. And if you react, the question they will pose to you is, “what did you say to these guys to piss them off?”. Because surely YOU were the aggressor, you alone against all these guys. So in turn you will be overly policed as you’re antagonized in to situations and found guilty on site. “Oh how sensitive you are with your political correctness”.

    Some near me have taken to flying huge rebel flags from the bed of their trucks. Nothing wrong with that, oh wait, they just gave is the finger, nice. Trump flags have been seen on these same vehicles, hence his brand is “their” brand, therefore not my brand, nor the brand of a nation of immigrants. Remember that that whole melting pot schtick you were sold in school? Funny, ain’t it?

    At work I’m points down right from the start. I have proven to a manager I report to how upper management evaluates a situation depending on the skin color of the people involved. Something bad happens, I show my manager that it was a coworker working on that process. Upper management comes in the next day and thinks I’m involved and say that the actions followed were wrong. My manager corrects them and shows who made the calls and they say he did everything right. Nice.
    A manager sees a group of people of color talking, they are screwing off, lazy, costing the company money. Same manager sees his fair skinned friends in the same department talking for twenty minutes and not only is it OK, heck, he may join in. So I can expect to be micromanaged and seen as less than even when there is documentation to the contrary.

    So for those who don’t know, being intimidated, over policed and micro managed is how racism feels.

    How do you deal with it? Through humor, philosophy and a long view of life. Small battles come and go, it’s the end game that matters. Make the house payment, raise the child and love the family. Minimize the contact with, the impact of and influence carried by those who wish you harm. I make it work. By doing this I have actually gotten to know people who are just full of hate, to know them, talk to them and find some common ground. What I’ve found is that we share some moral values (shocker!), some opinions about education, national defense, health care, taxes and commercial trade. We are exactly the same on some things and we love our families and work hard. I find it a shame that something so crass divides us. To live in a bigger world, I engage them and like with nuts, you take out the goody and shuck the rest. I do this on internet forums too. I’ll call out elitist a racist crap that occurs, sure, but I’ll talk bikes, cars, philosophy, ice cream with anyone who cares to talk about it. For in all but the shallowest among has something of worth to share and I want to be open to it.

    Trump won on a hateful platform but the jist of the angst of the majority of Americans is that we got hung out to dry in the globalization of our economy. And with that I agree wholeheartedly. I just wish he were a much, much stronger vessel with less hatred for others. It’s early in the game and we have no way of knowing how this experiment will turn out, but let’s start with ourselves and debate vigorously while still being able to share thoughts and ride together. We don’t have to love each other but we will miss so much and achieve so much less if we close doors. My door is always open. Unless you’re a complete jerk.

    That's the real thing.
    slow.
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  9. #189
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Really people? Short term memories here.

    Katie Pavlich: Obama’s anti-police ideology | TheHill

    Obama fuels the flames of the anti-cop movement | New York Post

    Sheriff Clarke: Obama Poured The Gasoline That Started The Fire In Dallas

    Police group director: Obama caused a 'war on cops' - POLITICO


    Talk to any Police officers? I have. Many. They feel the president wasn’t supporting them.

    Again, Trump never said go out and attack minorities. Obama never said go out and attack the police. So hold both to the same standard of influence.

    And it was the left that sent instigators to start trouble at the Trump rallies to prod Trump to respond. Well, they got what they asked for.
    Corso, I have a lot of respect for you coming on here and fighting for what you believe in a civil tone. Like I said, we're all on this plane that Trump is piloting now, so we need more empathy and civil discussion. I'm keeping an open mind about Trump's economic ideas, I really am. But the violent, xenophobic, racist tone he has set during his campaign is undeniable. Here are some examples-- quotes from Trump:

    "Part of the problem ... is nobody wants to hurt each other anymore."

    After a Trump supporter sucker-punched protester Rakeem Jones and threatened to "kill him" next time, Trump said: "He obviously loves this country and maybe he doesn't like seeing what's happening to the country."

    Trump told a Cedar Rapids crowd to "... knock the crap out of 'em, would you? Seriously. Okay? Just knock the hell — I promise you, I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise."

    During a protest in Warren, Michigan, Trump said of a protester: "Get him out. Try not to hurt him. If you do I'll defend you in court."

    At a New Hampshire rally where a protester was "taken out" by the audience, Trump gleefully said: "It was really amazing to watch."

    During a rally in Fayetteville, North Carolina, Trump said: "In the good old days, this doesn't happen, because they used to treat them very, very rough. We've become very weak."

    After a Trump supporter punched and choked a protester at a rally in Birmingham, Trump said: "maybe he deserved to get roughed up."

    In Las Vegas, Trump was not happy to see a protester being escorted away peacefully: "The guards are being very gentle with him," Trump said. "I'd like to punch him in the face, I'll tell you that."

    "We're not allowed to punch back any more," Trump lamented in Las Vegas. But a security guard denied that the protester had thrown any punches, saying Trump was "over-exaggerating."
    Trump continued his tirade: "I love the old days. You know what they used to do to guys like that in a place like this? They'd be carried out on a stretcher, folks."
    "Sometimes we talk a little bit tough," Trump said. "When I see somebody out swinging his fists, I say, ‘Get 'em the hell out of here.' We're a little rough."

    Taunting demonstrators at a rally in St. Louis, Trump said insultingly: "Go home and get a job. Go home to mommy."

    "The wall will go up and Mexico will start behaving."

    "Our great African American President hasn't exactly had a positive impact on the thugs who are so happily and openly destroying Baltimore!"

    "Laziness is a trait in the blacks. ... Black guys counting my money! I hate it."

    I think it would be very difficult to objectively argue that Obama has set a tone that's in the same league as far as directly fueling this 4th grade school yard mentality of dealing with emotion and conflict. It's simply unprecedented in the history of presidential candidates.
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  10. #190
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corso View Post
    Really people? Short term memories here.

    Katie Pavlich: Obama’s anti-police ideology | TheHill

    Obama fuels the flames of the anti-cop movement | New York Post

    Sheriff Clarke: Obama Poured The Gasoline That Started The Fire In Dallas

    Police group director: Obama caused a 'war on cops' - POLITICO


    Talk to any Police officers? I have. Many. They feel the president wasn’t supporting them.

    Again, Trump never said go out and attack minorities. Obama never said go out and attack the police. So hold both to the same standard of influence.

    And it was the left that sent instigators to start trouble at the Trump rallies to prod Trump to respond. Well, they got what they asked for.
    I'm sorry, but those articles are far more inflammatory than anything Obama is being accused of within. Titles such as Obama fuels the flames of the anti-cop movement and Obama poured the gasoline that started the fire in Dallas, but within the articles are quotes such as:

    Quote Originally Posted by President Obama
    "everybody understands that all lives matter. Everybody wants strong, effective law enforcement. Everybody wants their kids to be safe when they are walking across the street. Nobody wants to see police officers who are doing their jobs fairly hurt. Everybody understands it’s a dangerous job.”
    Their main point of these articles is actually that Obama didn't denounce Black Lives Matter. There's a huge leap of logic between him not denouncing a protest movement and him inciting the murder of police officers or even "fueling the fire". I don't think statements like the above come even remotely close to emboldening perpetrators of violent action like some of Trump's statements. That said...

    I really try to stay out of the political discussions and I greatly appreciate the civility shown here on VSalon. It's a part of what makes this a special corner of the internet. Thank you all for keeping it classy...
    "I guess you're some weird relic of an obsolete age." - davids
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  11. #191
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by 72gmc View Post
    Katie Hill
    Katie Pavlich, that is.*


    *because facts matter
    Dan Fuller, local bicycle enthusiast
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  12. #192
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcm119 View Post
    Corso, I have a lot of respect for you coming on here and fighting for what you believe in a civil tone.
    Seconded.
    Dan Fuller, local bicycle enthusiast
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  13. #193
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by bcm119 View Post
    Corso, I have a lot of respect for you coming on here and fighting for what you believe in a civil tone...
    Thirded. And he's a Fat Chance enthusiast, so, really... we can hang.
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  14. #194
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Corso,

    Give up.

    You're dealing with some folks who can't wrap their heads around opinions that differ from their own.

    Remember the McGlauhin group? A real old school news show: several different guests, several different opinions. Those real news shows have been 'replaced' by newsertainment shows where weak minded comedians mock people who hold different views. No dissent available or welcome. This has become a generations 'newspaper of record'.

    This is why many folks are having emotional breakdowns of disbelief from the outcome of the election. They lack the capacity to acknowledge as valid any opinions other than their own. Their views, their candidates are not simply the best ones-they are the only ones. All dissenting views are to be avoided, mocked, bullied into submission. The idea that 'evil' triumphed over 'good' is beyond their ability to comprehend because they live insulated from any views other than the prescribed approved views that they've been indoctrinated to.
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    love that pussy riot video, #pussygrabsback
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Glenn-- I think you should re-read the thread. And I don't think corso should give up. I'm not giving up. I'm going to work for a better country, with better information sources, and if I'm lucky I'll get a beer break with corso somewhere down the road.

    There will be a glass for you, too.

    Just don't try to switch my stout with IPA.
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  17. #197
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by 72gmc View Post
    Glenn-- I think you should re-read the thread. And I don't think corso should give up. I'm not giving up. I'm going to work for a better country, with better information sources, and if I'm lucky I'll get a beer break with corso somewhere down the road.

    There will be a glass for you, too.

    Just don't try to switch my stout with IPA.
    This has been a great thread, you're right.
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  18. #198
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Gang,
    It’s tough to “defend” Trump, as, well, he is who who is. Not my first choice for the job.

    There are two side to every story, sometimes 3.

    BUT, if the argument is that Trump did indeed win due to “racism”, and half the country was racist, wouldn’t Obama never have been elected in the first place?

    Hillary isn’t African American.

    And didn’t Joe Biden say he wanted to take Trump behind the gym? And Biden also stated he’d blast intruders through the door with a shotgun? Oh, but that’s just Joe being Joe. Yeah, the vice president.

    So where are we? The guy hasn’t been sworn in yet, and the hysteria is overwhelming!

    He won, that’s the way our system works. If he sucks, vote him out the next time. If he fails, we all fail. Well, not all. The wealthy on both sides will always be ok.

    To reply about the Trump comments about protesters at his rallies. The were PAID to incite trouble, and to poke trump to say exactly those things. As a result, if Trumps base took that que, the start of the snowball rolling. In a way, the plan backfired.

    I guess Hillary saying Trump supporters were a bucket of deplorables was “ok”...
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daltex View Post
    This is why many folks are having emotional breakdowns of disbelief from the outcome of the election. They lack the capacity to acknowledge as valid any opinions other than their own.
    No Glenn, this is why many folks are having emotional breakdowns of disbelief from the outcome of the election:
    Here’s Why We Grieve Today | john pavlovitz
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    Default Re: The world is officially upside down.

    Quote Originally Posted by StR View Post
    how do you define "left" in the US? ;))) democrats are left... ? ;)))
    In one of my posts I mentioned the "American Left" because it is unique to the US. Stuff that is 'normal' in the rest of the world causes people in the United States to become apoplectic and start bandying about terms like "socialist" and even "Communist", when they really don't know what they're talking about. It's really not possible to compare true leftist ideology with anything in the US. That's not good or bad but the US is just a unique place and is in a constant state of flux. I lived in Europe for a long time. I don't really prefer one over the other. Both have their great sides and less great sides.

    My sister-in-law grew up in the former East German and has first hand knowledge of leftist ideology, both the good and the bad. She rolls her eyes at the terms that are thrown around here in the US now.

    We don't always know how good we have it.
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