First Frame

[silesianbike.pl]

I warmly welcome,
very please with advice on the construction of the first welded frame.
What kind of project selected as first frame? Road, MTB or FAtbike;)?

[Doug Fattic]

Patryk, I think you might want to get in contact with James Duggan an Irishman that lives in Poland. He went to David Yates bicycle framebuilding class in England and visited me in Ukraine (they share a border for Americans that are geographically challenged) last year for a couple of days and watched us build some fillet brazed utilitarian bicycles near Kiev. Email me for his contact information if you are interested in getting in touch with him.

Doug Fattic
Niles, Michigan

[Amaro Bikes]

I warmly welcome,
very please with advice on the construction of the first welded frame.
What kind of project selected as first frame? Road, MTB or FAtbike;)?

Hello Patryk

I wouldn't recommend building a frame as first project, but build loads of junctions on spare scrap tubes.
Then, once you get enough practice and you're positive about all questions involved (heat, penetration, etc), get some triangles/closed structures, to check on tacking/alignments

All these practice finished, it would not matter what type of frame you use for the first samples, being more important to be a frame design you know enough about and you feel familiar with. If you are all into mtb, build a mtb, if you're more into road, build a road one, etc.

[e.Gellie]

Hi Patryk,
you don't say what practice you have done so far. I suggest you not only do practice joints, but try to break them. Also, try to look look at broken frames made from the type of tubing you plan to use; you will learn a lot. If you can get some, practice repairs and modifications on them before doing it for real.

I recommend building a road frame with straight stays, rather than trying to produce bent stays. That, and keeping them aligned as you build can come later. (Some advanced frame-builders seem never to have built a frame with curved stays .... ). My #1 bit of advice is I suggest you avoid excessive crimping of chainstays. I am surprised how much some inexperienced builders will crimp chainstays; Mass-produced bikes are NOT a good example, since they do not use the delicate tubing that we do, but instead lower-grade thick-wall steel which can generally withstand that abuse. Talk to anyone who does frame repairs and they will tell you of some surprising and unnecessary chainstay failures and disappointed owners. Good luck!

[silesianbike.pl]

Hello all,
Thanks for helpful information. I'm just beginning the adventure of building a framework so any suggestion is very valuable. I want to build a first frame of the ordinary pipes(standard from 4130 steel), not these dedicated like Columbus. What do you think is it a good idea?
This is to be welded frame. I wanted to start from the MTB frame, but it seems to me (as confirmed by Ewen Gelli) that a better idea would be to start from the frame-road.

[waterlaz]

I want to build a first frame of the ordinary pipes(standard from 4130 steel), not these dedicated like Columbus. What do you think is it a good idea?

That's if you can find a cheap source of CrMo tubing. I couldn't and that plain 4130 would cost me the same as an inexpensive columbus tubeset. You can get an MTB tubeset from Nova for less than $100. That is not to mention that you would really want conical tubes for your chainstays.

You can make your own dropouts though, if you wish to save some money and make your frame a little bit more custom.


PS all of this from a newbie point of view.

[silesianbike.pl]

To Doug Fattic,

You have full mailbox and I can not send you any messages.
Of course I am very interested of this contact :)

[silesianbike.pl]

I couldn't and that plain 4130 would cost me the same as an inexpensive columbus tubeset

I think you're right, if I do not have access to scrap, I'd better get to buy a dedicated tube.
An additional advantage of Columbus is the surface finish. Ordinary tube you still need extra polish up

[e.Gellie]

Hi Patryk,
I'm not sure what you mean by "ordinary pipe" I suggest you get the butted frame tube sets and tapered chainstays. Because that's the most misunderstood 'secret' of framebuilding. It has enormous implications for the durability of your frames .... with implications for all framebuilders no matter what wonder-material they are using! Your frame can be durable with welds that don't look 'Pretty' !

Read this Reynolds history

In 1895 (Alfred M. Reynolds).... began examining a problem which cursed many frame builders of the day: how to join thin, lightweight tubes without weakening the joints at which they are connected. It was a question that would forever shape the future of not just the Reynolds company, but of all bicycle manufacturers. Reynolds came upon a way to increase the thickness of the walls at the ends of the tubes only, while not increasing the tubes outside diameter. This was indeed a major breakthrough. Up until then frame builders had to manually insert a liner into the end of each tube to reinforce the joint or use heavy, thick tubing. In 1897 Alfred M. Reynolds and J.T. Hewitt, an employee of the company, took out a patent on their "butted" tubes.

Nature tapers things that are acting under cantilevered loads.

[silesianbike.pl]

Thank you all for your help. Of course I use to your advice.
I hope that my first frame it will not scrap;)

[devlin]

As a recent starter myself. Do not worry if your first frame is 'scrap'. Use it to introduce yourself, figure out your process and learn from. If it ends up a bike you can ride safely consider it a bonus. If you have had some fabrication experience away from bicycle frames you may have just enough skill to do it first go but don't worry if it doesn't work out. Take your time and consider everything you do at the time. Takes notes for future reference. Good luck. It really is great fun building anything really.

[Andrew R Stewart]

A few comments. I would suggest taking photos of your process. Not so much for then bragging to the interweb your progress but for your ability to slow down and think, your ability to go back and later re check a detail in mid process and for others to offer advice from. Don't be surprised if as you go along you get points of "next time I'm going to do..." After doing this for 38 years I still do. Keep your initial frames (note the "s") as simple and traditional as you can tolerate. Cable routing, wall thicknesses, drop out types. Consider making your own fork. In fact I usually build the fork first. If possible develop a relationship with a shop who has the proper cutting, reaming, facing, chasing tools. This will save a bunch of $, will give you a chance to also become a friend with the source for components or tools in the future. As long as you're never going to show the completed bike to others who you want praise from don't worry about the paint job. But the minute others see a poor paint job they will assume that the frame construction is also poor. People do see the book by it's cover. So get the best paint job you can afford. And be thinking about how to sign your work as in decals and/or badges. Andy.

[waterlaz]

Yesterday a guy gave me an advice to replace my frame :D
It is my first frame but I'm VERY happy with the result. The only thing he didn't like about my frame was the lack of any paint.
I've only used orthophosphoric acid on it and covered it with boiled linseed oil, so it looks kinda amberish.

[silesianbike.pl]

Hello.
I thank you for all the valuable advice. Surely I benefit from them.
I know I was advised that it is easier to perform road, but I've always loved MTB (especially hardtail) which is why I decided to build this first.
However at the moment I have still question.
Can I use 1018 steel(or any different) to perform Bottom Bracket (BB30x73) and Headtube (ZeroStack)?For everyday I worked as a cnc programer, so making this detail for me is a "daily bread".
Buying on Paragonmachineworks falls due to high transportation costs to Polish.

[Amaro Bikes]

Hi Patryk

Peter at Ceeway will be helpful at this side of the ocean.

Cheers

[afwalker]

You may consider 1045 for your headtube and bottom bracket.
What joining process are you planning of using? Lugs with silver/brazing with bronze/tig welding?
As a cnc programmer, you may be planning on making your dropouts as well.
Depending on your joining process, you may even consider stainless steel for your parts.
Good luck

[Animus Cycle Fab]

What joining method are you using?

If Luged or Brazed, 1045 will be fine. (Silver or Brass)
If Welding, the carbon content of this alloy is too high for high stress conditions leading to embrittlement in the HAZ.

For TIG, look for the 3rd digit in the series name to be less than 3 (.3% carbon content)
1010, 1018, 4130 etc

1010 has .1% Carbon
1018 has .18% Carbon
4130 has .3% carbon

[silesianbike.pl]

Hello :)
I thought about CEEWAY, but I decided that I would do everything myself, likewise dropouts.
In Poland there is no steel in 1018, but we have a similar 1015 or A588, so I'll use one of these two.
Of course, the frame is will be TIG welded. I think a good rod welding it will be ER70S-2.
I wonder which type of pipe Columbus will be better to this frame: GARA or THRON. I want make frame for Allmontain/Enduro smothing like this: NS BIKE Eccentric

[silesianbike.pl]

Hi,
What do you think about this project? What do you think about selected tubes?