ISO disc tabs

[bencooper]

I look at this part and am reminded of the Witcomb (London) days when someone would grab a piece of steel, use the aluminum template that was made as a guide slash cheat sheet, scribe it out, and then have at it with a hacksaw, 12" half-rounds, and some muscle memory. The part itself looks so simple that I wonder why someone who wanted one wouldn't/couldn't just fab one at the bench. You have your wall thickness, some basic radii. and some holes to locate. I asked earlier and still wonder, is there more than meets the eye here?

Sure, they're an easy part to make - but when I've got a batch of forks to build and they're so cheap to buy, why waste the time doing it myself?

I've got a good laser cutting company I use for a lot of work, custom dropouts and other things.

[incepi]

I look at this part and am reminded of the Witcomb (London) days when someone would grab a piece of steel, use the aluminum template that was made as a guide slash cheat sheet, scribe it out, and then have at it with a hacksaw, 12" half-rounds, and some muscle memory. The part itself looks so simple that I wonder why someone who wanted one wouldn't/couldn't just fab one at the bench. You have your wall thickness, some basic radii. and some holes to locate. I asked earlier and still wonder, is there more than meets the eye here?

I do a lot of manual fabricating for prototypes. Direct involvement in the process is interesting and informative. Once the design is complete, then batch producing is the more efficient approach. Why would I want to reproduce manually the same simple part again and again?

[e-RICHIE]

I do a lot of manual fabricating for prototypes. Direct involvement in the process is interesting and informative. Once the design is complete, then batch producing is the more efficient approach. Why would I want to reproduce manually the same simple part again and again?

I didn't mean you, I meant the customer who just wants one and then wants another one in 4 months, You presented this as a speculation on the interest in a part that you might bring to market. At least that's what I read into this. I'm asking where/who that market is. Since you haven't made any frames yet, I couldn't understand why you'd make a "batch" for you.

[cicli polito]

The water jet shop's preliminary estimate is $3 to $5 each for a small batch of 25. I will get a formal quote tomorrow. I will make three designs(one ISO and two Post Mount). That will give me enough for my needs, and the rest I will sell. At that price it's not worth paying the shipping cost to buy them from a supplier.

$3 per unit is a good price for that low qty in water jet. Around my neck of the woods $2.15 per unit is the cost for 100. Is there a set-up fee, what hole diameter and center to center tolerance are they quoting you, do you have to provide the raw stock, and will they be delivered deburred/tumbled? These factors can all add up as well.

[incepi]

My apologies. It's laser cut, not water.

There is a $50 set up fee. After that it's $3 each for 1-50, and $2.65 for 50 or more. The hole location and diameter tolerance is under 0.005". Material is included(1018). Not sure about finishing. All prices are in $CDN.

The samples they showed me for 3/16" steel were not bad in terms of edge finishes. Milled or EDM'd parts are better, but at a much higher cost.

[incepi]

I didn't mean you, I meant the customer who just wants one and then wants another one in 4 months, You presented this as a speculation on the interest in a part that you might bring to market. At least that's what I read into this. I'm asking where/who that market is. Since you haven't made any frames yet, I couldn't understand why you'd make a "batch" for you.

I will keep some and sell the rest. I'm supplying disc tab fixtures already. Disc tabs are a logical addition to the product mix.

[e-RICHIE]

I will keep some and sell the rest. I'm supplying disc tab fixtures already. Disc tabs are a logical addition to the product mix.

I use these cats for small items like yours: Custom Online CNC Machine Shop | Free CAD Software

[incepi]

I use these cats for small items like yours: Custom Online CNC Machine Shop | Free CAD Software

I have a local machinist who does prototypes for me, and small production batches. I have considered online services, but I am hesitant. I worry that I would not get the personal relationship that comes out of interacting face to face. To me that is important. I always go out of my way to meet people personally, even if it costs more and takes more time.

[e-RICHIE]

I have a local machinist who does prototypes for me, and small production batches. I have considered online services, but I am hesitant. I worry that I would not get the personal relationship that comes out of interacting face to face. To me that is important. I always go out of my way to meet people personally, even if it costs more and takes more time.

Well, you posed the question online to people you don't know or will never meet. I think all the replies are valid. Someone here might actually be a neighbor of Custom Online CNC Machine Shop | Free CAD Software and, for him, this thread will be a good resource.

[mmoore]

I've done both local and remote CNC type work for something Ive designed. though not always the case the local guy with the initial marginally higher price has come out cheaper in the long run.


I try to support local when its realistic, but there aren't many things these days that you cant find in a local setting.

[incepi]

Well, you posed the question online to people you don't know or will never meet. I think all the replies are valid. Someone here might actually be a neighbor of Custom Online CNC Machine Shop | Free CAD Software and, for him, this thread will be a good resource.

I will get emachineshop to quote, just to compare. Shipping will have to be factored in, and the currency exchange rate.

Based on your experience with them, are the quotes I provided comparable?

[e-RICHIE]

I will get emachineshop to quote, just to compare. Shipping will have to be factored in, and the currency exchange rate.

Based on your experience with them, are the quotes I provided comparable?

You're talking about a capital investment of a couple of hundred dollars here. I would care where they came from for that amount. Unless children or farm animals were involved, that is.

[incepi]

I sent Emachineshop a PDF for quotation.

On their website they claim to be in New Jersey. There is no specific mention of local manufacturing. How do I know my parts won't be made in North Korea by children with missing fingers?

[Rody]

Eric,

If you are not going to machine the pieces yourself, drawing the value from the experience of working with your hands, I see no particular positive attributes to paying someone else to make a "batch" of these over supporting a company like Paragon that has supported the frame building community for years, bringing innovation and availability of small parts to an otherwise overlooked industry.

I ask this from a pure business plan perspective...what do you hope to offer in this product that would convince the consumer to purchase from you over an established business that has wholly supported us for years at their own risk?

rody

[incepi]

Eric,

If you are not going to machine the pieces yourself, drawing the value from the experience of working with your hands, I see no particular positive attributes to paying someone else to make a "batch" of these over supporting a company like Paragon that has supported the frame building community for years, bringing innovation and availability of small parts to an otherwise overlooked industry.

I ask this from a pure business plan perspective...what do you hope to offer in this product that would convince the consumer to purchase from you over an established business that has wholly supported us for years at their own risk?

rody

There are many suppliers to the niche framebuilding industry. They all do so "at their own risk". If I offer a new product, that simply adds to the choice available for consumers.

I don't see why it matters to customers if the parts are made by me personally. I simply design them. Machinists make them. It's a fairly unremarkable business decision from my perspective. Insisting that I produce parts personally to "draw value from the experience" seems to me a somewhat romantic notion, especially if the parts are identical and the process is repetitive.

If people want to purchase tools and parts from established suppliers, that is their choice. If they want to encourage the participation of new suppliers, that is also their choice.

[dgaddis]

Rody is a smart dude...when he writes, I pay close attention. I think what he's getting at is:

-If you need a few for yourself, making them yourself is good experience. Yes, it's repetitive, but it's still good experience, you'll learn things you can apply to all sorts of parts, not just disc tabs
-If you plan to sell them, how many do you think you can sell? How many dollars profit for each one sold? Is it even worth the effort? Why would anyone even want to buy one from you vs Paragon or anyone else? (things to think about, I'm not asking for actual answers)

You could have made a bunch of these with a drill and a grinder in the time this thread has been going.

[EnginCycles]

There are many suppliers to the niche framebuilding industry. They all do so "at their own risk". If I offer a new product, that simply adds to the choice available for consumers.

I don't see why it matters to customers if the parts are made by me personally. I simply design them. Machinists make them. It's a fairly unremarkable business decision from my perspective. Insisting that I produce parts personally to "draw value from the experience" seems to me a somewhat romantic notion, especially if the parts are identical and the process is repetitive.

If people want to purchase tools and parts from established suppliers, that is their choice. If they want to encourage the participation of new suppliers, that is also their choice.

Common theme for me here. I will reply to this but will also not reply to any comments beyond that. I just want to put stuff in perspective.

Mark Norstad is the most amazing person in the bicycle industry. He is an incredible person and the reason people defend him is because he deserves it wholeheartedly. He is a dear friend of mine and I would always stand up for him if anyone that did not know him had a negative comment. With that said the disc tab is a REALLY basic part that has a very straight forward feature. Hold perpendicularity to the rotor and be placed in the correct location to the centerline of the axle. Beyond that the goal is to fit within the needs of the frame design and attempt to reduce stress risers as much as possible. Your part does not add enough extra material to not work any better than the Paragon one within these basic parameters. If you were to actually come up with something unique people would embrace it. You have not done this. Sorry not trying to be harsh but it is a fact.

I can think of so many people that want to attack Paragon because they have a stronghold on the industry. The reason they have this is because they always have inventory (or a defined date of restock), they innovate constantly and they are great people to work with. Heck I bought a CNC machine to make my own drop outs after years of successful parts made for me from Paragon. Mark helped beyond what I would have ever thought possible to get me up and running. He is so pro it is not even funny.

You are welcome to do what you want but please be thick skinned enough for people to say both negative and positive things about you (if you bring such a basic topic to a PUBLIC place). Nobody likes a cry baby.

My $.02

[hampco]

I've had a couple of interactions with Mark where I've said: "Hey, we like this piece but can you tweak it this way so we can do that?"

Bam, two weeks later I have a prototype and it's on their website. Mark has my business, that's for sure.

[incepi]

I welcome all comments, negative and positive. As long as they are intended to be constructive. If I disagree I won't hesitate to respond.

Most of the comments here have been on topic. Those are helpful. I don't really understand why some posters feel the need to digress and talk about issues outside of the subject. It ends up being a distraction and contributing little to the discussion.

I was really hoping that I would read about specific experiences with specific suppliers, and see samples of the manufacturing quality. For the most part that did happen(no samples showing finishes unfortunately).

I will proceed with a local supplier and go from there.

[e-RICHIE]

I was really hoping that I would read about specific experiences with specific suppliers, and see samples of the manufacturing quality. For the most part that did happen(no samples showing finishes unfortunately).

Top to bottom -

1) Taiwanese vendor. Forty five days end to end. Cost was pennies on the dollar. Perfect execution.

2) eMachineShop dot com. Two weeks. Pennies, etc. Perfect, etc.

3) Combination of Nordstrom's and JC Penny dot com. Impossible to find since I buy all the 8.5 men's that are ever listed. Small sampling shown.