Shorter Butts for S&S Cups?

[ToddFarr]

Gearing up to do my first coupled frame, Looking around I'm having a hard time finding the correct butt lengths to fit. What do you guys usually use for this?

[EnginCycles]

Gearing up to do my first coupled frame, Looking around I'm having a hard time finding the correct butt lengths to fit. What do you guys usually use for this?

Questions like this make me sad. If this is for a paying customer how do you think this looks that you are not sure how to do something? Serious question. Some things if you need to ask maybe it is not time.

Sorry to be harsh but if you want to have your website and claim to be a professional than you needed to know the answer to this or figure it out privately with a few people you trust.

-Drew

[afwalker]

I'm messing with a coupled bike for myself as a first foray using the tig version of S&S. The downtube has a long enough butt but the top tube I'm using SG 0.035" since I couldn't find a butt length that worked.
cheers
andy walker

[bencooper]

A bit harsh up there - asking questions is how we learn. I'm happy to tell customers that I don't know how to do something so I'll ask an expert.

Anyhow: Remember that the coupling itself takes up approx. 35mm of length, so you don't need a butt that's the full length of the coupling in position.

[Andrew R Stewart]

I have made two S&S frames for myself. Both times i used butted TTs and DTs. I did chose the tubes for their short center sections and position them to best locate the transitions WRT the couplers. I figured that if experienced guys offer to install couplers on premade frames the coupler's placement was not considered in how the tubes were placed (when originally built up). So a coupler might find it's self at the end of a transition or in the .6 or .5 center section. There doesn't seem to be problems that are made known to the interweb public with these jobs.

So I then believe that a guy with good previous building experience and some practice with stainless steel flow brazing and that can also locate the butts better WRT the couplers should be OK (with .9/.6 tubing). I also agree that if one is building for customers (and I use this term in the broad sense, not the exchange of money way) then they need both insurance (an S&S requirement to buy more then one set of couplers) as well as the experience to make the correct judgments/decisionsns that building any frame/fork involves.

Todd has, IMO, achieved this experience to build for his self. I did much the same a couple of years ago, ask for advice. I got a range of replies and went ahead with my planning then building.

Todd- If you'd like to take this off forum I'll be hapexplainxplane my experiences. Andy.

[Will Neide]

Some good info here on the nuts and bolts of the S And S, but nothing on wall thickness.
Folding Travel Bikes using S and S Machine Bicycle Torque Couplings™

Co-motion has a little about their restorations/conversions using S & S on their page. They have specific tubes for the couplers. Couldn't tell you the wall thickness but I'm sure you could make an educated conclusion. Maybe give them a call? Or Bilenky?

[Andrew R Stewart]

Todd- I'd be happy to explain my experiences on or off forum, later. It's off to work I go right now. Andy.

[Rody]

Todd,

The issue you face only is relevent if you are placing the couplers AFTER frame construction, attempting to leave an appopriate amount of butted tube after cutting out the section for coupler installation.

If you place the coupler before fabrication, you can control the overall length of the final butted section on both ends, providing greater planning and control over the final product. The danger involved with this process is if you miscut or damage the tube post coupler installation, then you have an expensive piece of scrap.

I've pasted two blog entries from years ago that help step through the process. I chose this entry because I did have a miter catch and deform the tube, so you can see the advantages and pitfalls of the process.

Part 1...tube prep
Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Chris B's road bike taking shape...

Part 2...putting it all together
Groovy Cycleworks 330-988-0537: Chris's road frame, Ups and Downs...

cheers,

rody

[steve garro]

A bit harsh up there - asking questions is how we learn

I thought it was through practice & repetition.
Maybe that's pre-WWW, huh?

PS - some extra beef on travel bikes is a good thing - dents & all that.
- Garro.

[ToddFarr]

It makes me sad that questions like this are discouraged.

This is not for a customer, this is my prototype for myself to get a handle on S&S. I know how to build a frame, I know how to silver braze stainless. I wasn't looking for someone to pick tubing for me, or build the frame for me, just maybe pointing me in a direction like "check out tubing brand A" or "here's a helpful link on tubing brand B" or give some simple advice "here's what I did"

When did questions become a thing of the "unprofessional"? You can learn something from everyone, even if you think you know everything about the topic.

I agree that practice and repetition is key, especially on muscle memory processes like brazing, welding, machining feel, ect. But shedding some initial light on S&S coupled frames seem like quite a different issue to me.

Thank you for everyone else that has added their .02

[steve garro]

It makes me sad that questions like this are discouraged.

This is not for a customer, this is my prototype for myself to get a handle on S&S. I know how to build a frame, I know how to silver braze stainless. I wasn't looking for someone to pick tubing for me, or build the frame for me, just maybe pointing me in a direction like "check out tubing brand A" or "here's a helpful link on tubing brand B" or give some simple advice "here's what I did"

When did questions become a thing of the "unprofessional"? You can learn something from everyone, even if you think you know everything about the topic.

I agree that practice and repetition is key, especially on muscle memory processes like brazing, welding, machining feel, ect. But shedding some initial light on S&S coupled frames seem like quite a different issue to me.

Thank you for everyone else that has added their .02

Well, look through the tubing catalogs, and check out the ones that have really long butts, like HOX2TT or HOX3DT2 - Garro.

[P K]

It makes me sad that questions like this are discouraged.

This is not for a customer, this is my prototype for myself to get a handle on S&S. I know how to build a frame, I know how to silver braze stainless. I wasn't looking for someone to pick tubing for me, or build the frame for me, just maybe pointing me in a direction like "check out tubing brand A" or "here's a helpful link on tubing brand B" or give some simple advice "here's what I did"

When did questions become a thing of the "unprofessional"? You can learn something from everyone, even if you think you know everything about the topic.

I agree that practice and repetition is key, especially on muscle memory processes like brazing, welding, machining feel, ect. But shedding some initial light on S&S coupled frames seem like quite a different issue to me.

Thank you for everyone else that has added their .02

+1,000,000

[Will Neide]

Wife: "Honey, you look like you're concentrating awefully hard on that computer screen. What you looking at?"
Me: " I'm looking for big butts."

Yikes!

[sam]

Todd, maybe some of the confusion is because on your website you list SS couplers as a current option for a 400.00 upgrade. If it is a prototype to see how to intall the couplers, use a straight gauge tube like andy walker suggested, cheap and easy and works.

Drew was not being harsh he was giving an honest answer based on the info given, the professionals on this forum are very giving with their knowledge, however they want to make sure us newbees dont get into trouble, hurt someone, or give any false claims that will devalue their profession. I have found that if you spell out your reasons and intentions for the questions that everyone can give a more detailed answer without questioning you in the process.

[blasdelf]

they need insurance (an S&S requirement to buy more then one set of couplers)

Wait, you can get a single set initially before becoming the real deal?

[afwalker]

Yes you will need your liability insurance carrier to issue a rider naming S&S Machine as a COI, certificate of insurance.
Westlake was very easy to work with for this.
cheers
andy walker
walker bicycle co
Walker Bicycle Company | | Walker Bicycle Company

[afwalker]

^^They used to sell a single set, but their website makes it look like they don't anymore, unless someone has done this recently?
"BTCs™ are sold only to professional bicycle framebuilders. We're sorry but couplings are not sold to amateur framebuilders."
Folding Travel Bikes using S and S Machine Bicycle Torque Couplings™
Should have read your question a second time. But that's the answer as to how to get them:)
cheers
andy walker

[zank]

Todd, I dig PegoRichie/Spirit for Lugs for S&S bikes. The butted ends are so long that you can place the couple in a thick section and still have a thick section up at the head tube.

[zank]

And if I hadn't had the opportunity to ask questions over the years and only had trial and error to build my skills, I'd have given up a long time ago.

[veryredbike]

My favorite bit from the above-linked groovy cycles blog:

"Now a lesser builder might have really been pissed, allowing anger to take charge. Not me, I just uttered a few choice curse words, curled up into a fetal position, and sank into a swirling pool of despair."