Nu school Versus old

[Mike Mcdermid]

Its dawned on me recently in the US there's a whole new builder scene and an old school scene?

Here in the UK its your either 30 years in or your a nobody, i recently was told of one particular guy judging others and wondered what the fuck exactly made him an expert with any position to peer review another builder in fact he pointed out it should be an entry requirement to the trade...

Which way will it go theres a whole host of UK guys who are young and dynamic doing stuff thats not the norm but being frowned upon as not up to scratch by their traditional peers ,there are guys who know their shit but do it slightly newer ,or should it be slightly better they aren't scared to try and fail or do it their way

I suppose my point or question is doing it new style wrong for some reason

[Dave Anderson]

.....I suppose my point or question is doing it new style wrong for some reason

Nope....not at all IMO.....as long that they "know their sh$t", as you note, that is.

Dave

[e-RICHIE]

Its dawned on me recently in the US there's a whole new builder scene and an old school scene?

I think there's one scene atmo; either you're a professional or you're not.

Here in the UK its your either 30 years in or your a nobody, i recently was told of one particular guy judging others and wondered what the fuck exactly made him an expert with any position to peer review another builder in fact he pointed out it should be an entry requirement to the trade...

We need more info on the particular guy doing the judging before we can judge your point of view.

Which way will it go theres a whole host of UK guys who are young and dynamic doing stuff thats not the norm but being frowned upon as not up to scratch by their traditional peers ,there are guys who know their shit but do it slightly newer ,or should it be slightly better they aren't scared to try and fail or do it their way

Stuff that not the norm? What's that mean?! Are we referencing external features or some innovations that make these 'newer' frames worthy of a look?

I suppose my point or question is doing it new style wrong for some reason

No. Just keep in mind that you can't judge much based on just seeing it. This is a trade, not an art form. Well, that's my opinion.

[Will Neide]

As a "new" guy, I'm wondering what would constitute "new school" in regards to construction. I would say I fall into the "new school" method of training (IE self taught). I didn't have the ability to work in a mass production facility nor receive training from an experienced veteran. A majority of my skills have been pulled from years of "tinkering" with a multitude of different hobbies. From building cars, motors, body work, to sewing my own cycling gear because I wasn't happy with what was available on the market. I think I come from the DIY crowd, and IMO, I think a good majority of new folks come from that route. Many have alternate jobs to help fund the start up of our own framebuilding businesses. I'm certainly not out to revolutionize anything. I think every city has the population to support a few builders. Currently, I think I'm the only one in my state, with a few up the road in Pa and across the river in Jersey.

If any vets want to inspect something I made, or my processes, to offer advice, I'm all ears. Everyone I've dealt with so far has been honest and helpful.

[Curt Goodrich]

I don't believe there's a new school vs. old school. Like Velo Wilco wrote, people are taking a different path into the industry more now than in the past but that's where the differences end. Good work is good work. Same as always. Materials have changed but we're still building essentially the same proven geometries. What makes a good bike today is the same as it was 30+ years ago. Styles have changed and while that's good it's only window dressing. The fundamentals are still the same.

[crumpton]

#snip# in the UK its your either 30 years in or your a nobody #snip#

hey, a new word. noob and nobody

noobody


i was a noobody not that long ago applying old school methodology with new school technique/material. got judged and i'm still here.

[Rayburn Shaun]

Decent geometry and a *safe* end product is what matters to me as a builder (non-pro builder).

[Amaro Bikes]

Newschool, oldschool... I think they only reflect the endless need of "decaling" everything, but nothing to do with what it really matters.
In fact, I really think in many questions the old days were more "newschooled" than today's many proposals which just try to replicate or repeat what has been done before. And I do not mean just techniques (building lugged steel frames in 2013 shouldn't be called newschool just becauase is done by someone new, the same way as a monocoque carbon fibre frame shouldn't be called oldschool just because it's coming from someone with 50 years building frames.
I can remember how many "oldschool" builders tried incredibly crazy things in the old days, and even before I was born, name only one "supercrazyrevolutionary" idea from modern era and I bet you 12 chocolate palmiers that it was already done by a long way many years before (monoblade forks/stays, foldable bikes, recumbent, mountain bikes, etc).
I do not either share the DIY way to be considered as a "newschool" thing, in fact, I can't see how could we even consider to be DIY comparing with old days when people tried first to do things on their own and had to experiment with their own hands and almost no tools. Today, we're all useless pieces of delicacy who consider ourselves DIY masters just because we read a book, see a youtube video, buy incredibly nice machines and repeat what we have seen other people doing. I can tell you the guy who taught me doing frames did not have any of those helps and just had to press his brain to reach the result he wanted without any more help than his hands, a couple of pictures of mtb bikes on magazines or his own experiences on road racing.
Even today, I can see this different approach. When "oldschool" people have a problem to solve, the first thought is "how can I solve it", while "newschool" people (including myself, although workbench hours help a lot to re-educate your mind) first thought is "where can a buy the solution to this" or "who can tell me how to do it". To me, this is pretty clear situation on how "oldschool" is much more "new" than us "newschool" people without this incredible faith in our own mind and human skills, which after you spent some long time with the files and saw, you surprise yourself on how many things where wrongly pre-assumed inside.

All that said, the other way around of all this is that all this "newschool" people many times reach a problem, and when they want to solve it they need to ask to some of the "oldschool" people, and here is when a very funny situation can happenm which is unless they hear exactly what they want to hear, they will just reply with "you oldschool people are old stones who can even consider new approaches and you think there's only your own way". Well, I think we can all see now and then this scenario around here with many different kind of posts.

So, I can't see any chance to divide newschool or oldschool based on age or experience, but just on the approach on how to build. Same way as anyone building a castle or a cathedral can't be any newschool if he uses the same techniques as people from the middle age.

Newschool? Oldschool? Nothing to do with experience or age. If decals are needed (which I consider them to be a mistake), they should be used depending only in the results and procedures, without even having in mind who is behind.

[Phil Gradwell]

I think it's just one guys opinion. I'm in the UK and I hadn't picked up on a "30 years or nobody" vibe, but then I don't know any frame builders and I only lurk on the internet so I guess wouldn't encounter it. As a consumer I don't care how long the guy has been doing it if he's done a proper job. How long have the guys at Google been making internet search engines? Would he say they don't know what they're doing?

I work in electronics manufacturing which you'd think is new school but we've been doing things the same way for at least 30 years. Things are always changing far more so than in bicycle land but we have old guys who are stuck in their ways. I don't blame them that's just what they're comfortable with. They don't like change or things which they see as making their life more complicated (the process is simpler but they'd have to learn) especially when they've spent 30 years doing it one way and it always worked OK then. We've had assembly operators who've been doing something wrong for years because that's what they've always done and they didn't know any different, although you have to ask why nobody noticed. Just because you have experience doesn't mean you have experience doing it right. I say always ask questions and learn, don't be afraid. That's the key.

[e-RICHIE]

I have read the OP, re-read the replies, and consulted the Tarot cards. And I have no clue what this thread is really about atmo.

[Will Neide]

I have read the OP, re-read the replies, and consulted the Tarot cards. And I have no clue what this thread is really about atmo.

Aren't Tarot cards old school? Or is that new age?

[e-RICHIE]

Aren't Tarot cards old school? Or is that new age?

www.tarotcardsfordummies.com

[bencooper]

Mike, are you talking about the Framebuilder's Collective? They were talking about setting up certification for builders but I got the impression they were the opposite - a bunch of relative newbies trying to set themselves as an authority.

The old-school guys weren't too impressed with having their skills impugned, I know that.

[e-RICHIE]

Mike, are you talking about the Framebuilder's Collective? They were talking about setting up certification for builders but I got the impression they were the opposite - a bunch of relative newbies trying to set themselves as an authority.

The old-school guys weren't too impressed with having their skills impugned, I know that.

The intrigue is intriguing atmo. What are you talking about!?

[bencooper]

The UK Framebuilders Collective (or Guild, not sure what name they settled on) - they were talking about having an approval scheme for framebuilders where builders would build a frame to be assessed/tested by the guild or a testing body.

[southpier]

....we're all useless pieces of delicacy who consider ourselves DIY masters ....

good one

[Alistair]

Mike, are you talking about the Framebuilder's Collective? They were talking about setting up certification for builders but I got the impression they were the opposite - a bunch of relative newbies trying to set themselves as an authority.

The old-school guys weren't too impressed with having their skills impugned, I know that.

Exactly. Johnny come lately guys like Sachs, Kirk, Strong, Pegoretti, Flanigan, Ferris etc. are clearly just a bunch of FNG's who have self appointed themselves as figureheads of the framebuilding world. They should really put some time in at the bench/behind the torch and gain some experience, before dispensing advice to others via the internet....

Alistair.

P.S. Bencooper, what are you talking about?

[bencooper]

Interesting, you seem to have read a whole lot into what I said which wasn't there in the first place. I haven't mentioned those builders at all - they wouldn't be in a UK association anyway, and they do have a huge amount of experience. So I've got no idea where you got the idea that I was saying anything at all about them.

[Alistair]

Interesting, you seem to have read a whole lot into what I said which wasn't there in the first place. I haven't mentioned those builders at all - they wouldn't be in a UK association anyway, and they do have a huge amount of experience. So I've got no idea where you got the idea that I was saying anything at all about them.

I didn't have to do any reading into anything.

You said: "Mike, are you talking about the Framebuilder's Collective? They were talking about setting up certification for builders but I got the impression they were the opposite - a bunch of relative newbies trying to set themselves as an authority."

The builders I listed are in The Framebuilders Collective and since you described them as "a bunch of relative newbs" I was just wondering why you would say that.

We must be crossing our wires somewhere. If the misunderstanding is on my end, apologies.

Alistair.

[Eric Estlund]

Alistair, you are talking about the primarily US based "The Framebuilders Collective". Ben is discussing a different UK based proposed guild (presumably this one?)that may or may not have settled on the same/ similar name. Different folks, different mission (from my understanding of each).