When your friends all move to the 'burbs and become unresponsive...

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Originally Posted by caleb

The back and forth about time here is interesting.

Last night I wrote this after getting fed up trying for three months and at least ten emails to get a single overnight mountain bike trip planned in August.

One of the guys who can't seem to take two days out of the whole summer away has a stay at home wife and a pretty much full time nanny.

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^^That stuff is expensive, he's gotta work his ass off to pay for it!

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Originally Posted by caleb

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

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It sounds like you need new friends anyways....

I think people need to be less afraid of boring their kids. Most of my best ideas as a kid came when I was bored. Like when my mom said "Go to your room and find something to do." Or "Go out in the backyard for a couple hours." I realize not everyone has a backyard these days. Kids need to go back to being free range, like chickens. Look how happy the chickens are! Kids are the same.

Caleb's list does have a point. I say this both as a parent and someone who worked with teens on and off for years.

The cultural messages people send or tacitly reinforce belie particular views as to what the world and living are for ... usually said ideas are based on consumption, competition, insulation from fear and risk, etc. It is insane and possibly culturally suicidal in that it's just not a sustainable way to live - no wonder kids are anxious, afraid, depressed.

It also need not be so (and thankfully not all parents think this way, just like the social divisions that divide people need not be so.). Social divisions exist for a reason, but there's no reason they can't be transcended. One task is to be generous - we lived in the suburbs when we moved to Nashville and it wasn't so bad ... in fact it had its appeal. While not all of the values we observed did we want to instantiate in our family's life, there was as much good as bad. When we moved back to NC we went straight back to our fun old neighborhood... we are the "cool" people in our family circles as far as I can tell and are at times perceived as such - we live in a hip urban area with good food, bike most everywhere, drink fancy coffee, have degrees from and work at elite educational institutions, etc. And yet not all of these values are what we want for our kids, either ... cool, woke, socially conscious, urbane life can be a bit precious, no? And don't even get me started about Duke.

But friendship can transgress the values and ideologies that do this kind of stuff.

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Originally Posted by j44ke

Kids need to go back to being free range, like chickens. Look how happy the chickens are! Kids are the same.

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Our chickens were freaking savages. "Pecking Order" is not just a figure of speech.

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Originally Posted by caleb

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

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Are you sure you still want to be friend with these people you're so actively judging? Maybe it's not them?


While you consider that, let me offer my own experience going through parenthood: I have never encountered another creature that is so skillfully, guilelessly capable of consuming every drop of energy and attention that I could offer as the small human being my wife and I created. She was adorable, she was helpless, and she was solely her parents' responsibility, 24/7/365.

My daughter turned my life inside out and I can never return to who I was before - When she was six months old, six years old, twelve years old, and twenty-five years old. I will grow old and die as a father. When you become a parent you're transformed. As her parents my wife & I made all sorts of choices in the neighborhood of the ones you listed. Our choices, not yours. We're pretty secure in them.

As far as friends... Well, we chose a lifestyle that we believed accommodated raising a healthy child into a competent adult. It involved things like a reliable bedtime, healthy food at a the dining room table every night, the best schools we could find and friends who shared those values. We lost and gained friends over the years for any number of reasons. Some we chose to shed, some shed us, and others just drifted away.

Interestingly, I've reconnected with more than a few friends from college who we lost track of for a decade or more. Most of them, but not all of them, went through the same kind of parenting lives we did. Their kids are grown and we have more time for each other. That's pretty nice. It's also been nice (with a couple of these old friend) to get to know their kids, now in grad school or residencies here in Boston.

This is brilliant. I don't have children and so I like to stay out of voicing my opinion about such things. But I find this an interesting and educational post.

Free Range Kids! I love this!

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Originally Posted by j44ke

I think people need to be less afraid of boring their kids. Most of my best ideas as a kid came when I was bored. Like when my mom said "Go to your room and find something to do." Or "Go out in the backyard for a couple hours." I realize not everyone has a backyard these days. Kids need to go back to being free range, like chickens. Look how happy the chickens are! Kids are the same.

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Originally Posted by taylorj

This is brilliant. I don't have children and so I like to stay out of voicing my opinion about such things. But I find this an interesting and educational post.

Free Range Kids! I love this!

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There's been studies, TedTalks, podcasts, etc about this very topic.

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Originally Posted by dgaddis

There's been studies, TedTalks, podcasts, etc about this very topic.

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Recently read a very good book call The Last Child in the Woods that advocates more unstructured time outdoors.
I try to do this with my kids as often as possible. They may not be able to hike very far (or fast, given their attention span is diverted by every rock, worm, and bug we see) but I firmly believe familiarity at a young age with the outdoors is important.

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Originally Posted by caleb

The crap that sure seems to stress them out can't even loosely be described as a need, though.

No kid needs to grow up in a house with 1500 sq ft per human. There were royals who occupied less spacious quarters.

No kid needs to be on a steady drip of $$$ educational activities as a preschooler. Cello lessons as a three year old? Mandarin group at the community center? Kid's yoga?

No kid needs to go to a preschool that requires an "interview." What does that even mean?

No kid needs to be in the state's best school district. Hell, we could homeschool these kids and have them college ready by age 12.

No kid needs to have a parent food journal everything that goes in their body to confirm the optimal nutritional plan is being executed. We all grew up on Cherios just fine.

These aren't cliches, these are actual examples from friends' lives.

It's endless, and I can see how it's stressful. But none of it is needed.

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Yeah, none of that stuff is needed. But even if you don't do all of that, it's not like you can just leave the kid at home by themselves and go do something else. I have single/childless friends who used to ask me to meet up on a random weeknight for drinks or whatever. Before kids I could do something spontaneously. Now, even though I don't have to rush my kids to some ridiculous activity, I also can't just plop my 2 and 4 year old in an uber and ask them to make themselves dinner when they get home.

Also, some of that stuff is driven by the kids. My daughter asked if she could do ballet. She tried it with a friend, loved it, and now I have a new weekend morning commitment. So now I'm not as flexible to go ride when I want or to meet others for brunch. But am I going to tell one of the people I love most in the world she can't do something she wants because I need to maintain flexibility? No.

I also just moved out of the city to the suburbs, so now I'm much further from friends. Shortly thereafter, many of them moved as well, but we're still further apart than we used to be. There are economic realities here too. I moved from a place where I would enter a lottery to find out what public school my kids would attend (which may or may not be near my home), then would still have to hire a nanny since school ends between 2-3pm (and my job doesn't). Plus I would be choosing to not own a home while my kids were in school because rising real estate prices meant I couldn't afford to stay in the neighborhood I was living in. Instead I moved to the country, where there are great schools with before and after school programs. Plus now my kids have a yard to run around in. I would have been great if others had moved to the same town, but real estate doesn't always work like that.

The bottom line is that when you become a parent, your kids become the most important thing in your life, and other things fall by the wayside sometimes. It's not personal.

I will try and not repeat what others have said.
- My wife and I chose not to have kids.
- Living in Manhattan/NYC was great because I had friends from childhood and my wife had friends from college who moved there.
- Then many started getting married, having kids, and moving to the 'burbs and we slowly lost touch.
- We decided to move to a 'burb that was one of the most diverse towns in NJ which had many child-free couples like ourselves and a neighborhood of couples with kids but who also liked to party. That meant they would get babysitters and we would go out - locally - so in an emergency they could get home. Mostly Saturday nights but anything during the weekend days was off limits due to kid activities.
- Then we moved to Boston...not the friendliest town so no comment.
- We are at that time when long lost friends have teenage kids who do not need as much oversight and/or are going to college so those relationships are being re-kindled.
- We are also at a time when couples are getting divorced which sometimes makes it even more awkward - who do you choose?

- And last, we are lucky to come from big and very close families (I have 7 siblings and she has 6) so that is great too because at least our siblings think we may -once in a while- be willing to go to a Saturday/Sunday soccer game, kids party, etc, if it means we will get to spend time with our siblings, brothers/sisters-in-law, nieces, and nephews.

Our best advice is to move to an urban area which has couples of similar age to you and do not have kids. These areas tend to be the most diverse neighborhoods but not always with the best school districts because child-free couples do not want to pay high property taxes for no reason.

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Originally Posted by m_b_b

...I have single/childless friends...

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If we are being politically correct, most couples without children would prefer child-free as childless assumes a deficiency in one, the other, or both people (and no, I am not kidding about this one).

I'm of a similar mind as Joni.
Great thread, and a bit surprised by how personal many have been.
Thank you.

Things stop. New ones start. Orbits collide then retreat then maybe collide again. Who. Really. Knows.

Friends are for life, even when the space is wide. If you're that desperate for company, troll Netflix.

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Originally Posted by bcm119

I’m another never-kids DINK.

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I was a DINK. Now I'm a SINK. Membership in these exclusive clubs has its privileges!

We don't have kids, and miss old breeder friends. Yeah it sucks, and probably from both sides. I love to cook and feed people, that's a great venue. Except our house is far from kid-proof, and if I'm being really honest, usually too much of a clutter disaster to comfortably entertain. Plus, kids need to be in their own space with toys and routines and maybe occasional brief moments being non- (adult)conversation disrupting kids. So we try a couple of times a month to invite friends with kids over to dinner- at their place. We try to make it easy and cater a big pot of something we've made at home with a couple bottles of wine and schlep it over in the car and eat in Alien territory, instant dinner and gives them a break from cooking and an opportunity for "adult" food. Sometimes the meal goes over well with the young'uns, sometimes not but parents know and are prepared with kids' ever-changing diet preferences from their own cupboard (Cheerios for dinner? really?). Conversations are often captured in brief moments, and often center around the kids- but after all this is our friends' new reality and so we meet them sort of half way and we still get a good dose of what we used to share as well as laugh about the kids, and tsk tsk support about all the challenges of parenthood that we'll never fully understand. Change is hard, friendships take work. On another note, how do you keep track of old friends you used to ride with every week who have more or less given up the bike? Do you bother? What were those friendships really based on?

Karen and I have no children but our constant friends who do we didn't do things with unless we went to their kid's ball games (which were some of the best times ever because our friends didn't give a damn how the game came out and we reveled in kids being kids) or big family get togethers where we aren't family but they invite us anyway and we saw how their whole lives were their children... until the children grew up. Now we get together for music and stuff because they have time. And they must have raised their kids right because the kids like the same music we do and come out if they can get a baby sitter.

But some friends or family drift away as things change. Bedrock connections abide.

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Originally Posted by NYCfixie

If we are being politically correct, most couples without children would prefer child-free as childless assumes a deficiency in one, the other, or both people (and no, I am not kidding about this one).

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No offense intended here. I referred to myself as childless until I was not, so was not aware of any potential negative connotation. Now I know for the future.

I never wanted kids.
I married a women who never wanted kids.
We're we never wanted kids people.

Before my first child I raced mountain bikes EVERY weekend, every chance I got throughout New England. A little 'cross too. No distance was too far to drive.

With each child, my racing steadily declined. Until I was down to a few races a season, then zero. I have 3 kids. My weekends slowly evolved into soccer, hockey, figure skating, baseball, lacrosse, music lessons, dance, school activities, dirt bikes, family bike rides, etc. Children are the ultimate Vampires: They suck your time, money, emotions--your life. But you gladly give them all you can.

We drifted from close friends, as everyone seemed to move into new waters, children or no children.

I was recently thinking about friends I haven't seen in a very long time. It happens. Had a crew of around 8 guys I raced with. I only see one of them now. But in my book, a true friend is forever. When you think that "Joe hasn't kept in touch"...well, then again, I haven't called Joe either. It's nothing to get mad or blame anyone for. Only so much time in a day. Week.Month. Year(s).

Racing was replaced by the Pan Mass Challenge and other charity rides. I've raced some 'cross just for fun-(live too close to Gloucester not to) and to remind me I'm far from racing shape. Yeah, someday I'll get back in shape...yeah.

I have a bunch of bikes, none custom. The reason? Kid$. I've put all 3 (my youngest graduates in May) through college. My oldest through Med school too.

We have 3 young adults now. All doing well. Where the F*K did the time go? It's a cliche, but damn, it happened.

Do I have a point here? I guess things just naturally change/evolve. I just happens, our family saying: Go with the flow.

Ultimately, I don't think this is about kids. It's just about competing commitments. I've certainly seen the same thing happen when a friend has a new partner. Or a sick relative. Or parents who are no longer independent. Or a new job. It's not necessarily about living in a place that is "urban" or "diverse" versus rural and less diverse - I've had friendships change when living in either environment. I hope others don't judge me for having children (although the term "breeder" feels a bit judgmental, acknowledging that it may not have been intended that way). I also hope they don't judge me for having a job that requires frequent nights and weekends, because that gets in the way of social interaction too. I do try to do my best to not judge friends for the decisions they make, understanding that only they can set their own priorities.

I've had friends drift nearer and further depending on life circumstances, and find that the good ones always drift back eventually.

I used to tell nosey people that my wife and I had kids but we sold them. I was made to stop saying that by my wife. Evidently some (very stupid) people didn't understand that I was joking. Now when someone asks me if we have kids, I just say "Not that I know of."

About 10 years ago, our friends' kids started coming and visiting us in the city when they turned 17 years old. The first one who did this came with his girlfriend and she is now his wife and they have a 4 year old daughter. The best thing any of them do is listen to our advice and then go do what they've been planning on their own. Like move to Berlin or Malaysia. Which was actually sort of following our advice except for the Malaysia one. I think we suggested something boring like China. All of them are cooler than us and their parents combined.

My cousin's son came and visited us, then moved to LA and went to film school and married a stripper and they had a baby and she went into rehab and they got a divorce and he sued for custody and fortunately I gave him absolutely no advice except which lens to buy for his camera. He's a great dad though.

Seriously, having our friends' kids come visit on their own when they are old enough to be cool but still a bit knock-kneed about life is a real joy. I highly recommend it.


edit: All this reminds me of that Steve Martin movie "Parenthood". There are some great scenes in that.

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Originally Posted by j44ke

...I used to tell nosey people that my wife and I had kids but we sold them. I was made to stop saying that by my wife. Evidently some (very stupid) people didn't understand that I was joking. Now when someone asks me if we have kids, I just say "Not that I know of."

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When those same rude and invasive people ask us...
- Why don't you have kids?
- Is there something wrong with one of you?

Or tell us...
- You are still young, maybe someday.
- It's never too late.


We usually just give it right back to them...
- My wife says I am shooting blanks.
- I say she has an inhospitable womb.


I am never rude enough to tell people that I think they are idiots for having kids so what gives them the right to judge me for not having kids?

Well, I like kids and I like when my friends have kids, and I like when my friends who have kids bring them over and I can fill their kids up with candy and then send them home with their parents.

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Originally Posted by j44ke

Well, I like kids and I like when my friends have kids, and I like when my friends who have kids bring them over and I can fill their kids up with candy and then send them home to throw up on their parents.

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Fixed it for you.

And, I do not dislike kids. I just do not want any of my own and my wife does not want them in our house/apartment (they are very messy and can't wipe their own butts for so many years).

I have a few perspectives to share.

I went to a University College for 4 of my 5 years of Uni and developed a close cohort of friends during that time. It was a big adjustment moving away from College at a time when friends were moving interstate for further study or work or overseas for the same reasons. In the intervening years, there has been marriages, kids, break ups, more moves, career advancement and other life changing events (and so on). While we are not all in the same state or even country anymore, and catch ups are rare, the friendships formed are generally the type where you can pick up where you left off six months ago, two years ago. It's not ideal, but it's life I suppose. I'll come back to this in a moment.

We have two kids. It is a life changing experience for the all the reasons and more others have described. This was our decision and I don't begrudge others for not making a similar choice. Each to their own. I think more understanding between those with kids and those without would sometimes go a long way. There's no right or wrong answer here, just an understanding and appreciation of the different perspectives involved.

As for friendships and kids, my perspective is slightly different. I eventually moved away from my home state for work and hence joined the exodus I described above. In time my friendship group (outside the College group described above) all pretty much had kids. Being interstate, catch ups became rare and involved a juggling act of work, relationships and children. In addition, I now cop a bit of grief for being away from home (so to speak). What started as a move for a few years has gradually turned into a permanent move. This hasn't gone down well in some circles, which is hard when there is 25 years plus of friendship in question. So, its not so much having kids or living in the 'burbs that is the issue, but moving away. Despite the challenges, these friendships are still on-going, valued and just require a bit more work.

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Originally Posted by NYCfixie

When those same rude and invasive people ask us...
- Why don't you have kids?
- Is there something wrong with one of you?

Or tell us...
- You are still young, maybe someday.
- It's never too late.


We usually just give it right back to them...
- My wife says I am shooting blanks.
- I say she has an inhospitable womb.


I am never rude enough to tell people that I think they are idiots for having kids so what gives them the right to judge me for not having kids?

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You made the right decision.

Two of most closest friends are married without kids. My sons Godfather never had kids (that he doesn’t know about). Us having kids have hurt my relationship with them. But part of life is knowing to let go and not take it personal. When I see them it’s fine we don’t talk about my kids too much. It’s more adding to the bathroom stupidity humor that we shared all our lives. Kids are great. They are a very easy way to give your life purpose and to sacarfice for something more than you. Maybe because I was raised Episcopalian I believe dedicating your life to something greater than you is the path to happiness . Kids make that pursuit pretty freaking easy. It harder to do this without kids. But those who do live the most amazing lives for which I am envious of until I again hang out with my kids (bc that is what I chosen). Life is about sacarfice and choosing to focus on something more important than you. Whatever that is one should be fulfilled from it.

This thread is personal.
This thread is not.
Let's get very personal: Shoes. Cycling Shoes.
I'm interested in the way people connect in their lives.
I don't give much of a sht about their feet.
So which thread might be locked first?
Put me in the ditch if I'm not riding straight.

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Originally Posted by davids

Are you sure you still want to be friend with these people you're so actively judging? Maybe it's not them?

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I think you're the second person to basically say some version of "it's not them, it's you." To some extent, I'm sure that's true.

Curious though, since so many here are educating the non-parents in parenthood, what obligations do parents have to existing friendships, the violation of which would rightly be judged negatively? Are there any at all? For example, does one need to generally keep commitments? Or respond to communication? If not, why does an exemption exist for parents and nobody else?

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Originally Posted by Octave

That's the problem with this assumption, though - kids-free people do not inherently have more time available. They have chosen to alot it elsewhere. Person A has children, which I understand is a huge amount of time-commitment. Person B has a full-time job (40h/week), hustles freelance in the evenings (20h/week) and coaches cyclists 5 mornings a week before work (20h/week). Person B has no kids. Person A and person B have both made their choices and neither commitment takes precedence over another, that's all I'm trying to say. For person B, "lots of other choices are taken off the table" too. But none of those details matter, because no ones time is worth more or less than anyone elses. If you choose to prioritize children then kudos, that's a really big life choice. But those who have chosen other paths may have similarly dedicated their time elsewhere.

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I think the root of the tension between people with kids and people without kids is that I have never in my life met a parent that really thought parenting was just one choice among many good choices that should be afforded no more social/ethical/moral weight than saving the whales or serving on the local park board or learning a musical instrument. Maybe such parents exist, but I've never met them.

It seems pretty straightforward to me why non-parents chafe at treating childrearing as somehow more special than anything they do.

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Originally Posted by caleb

For example, does one need to generally keep commitments? Or respond to communication? If not, why does an exemption exist for parents and nobody else?

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Yes, yes and it doesn't. Friendship ebbs and flows, for sure. But if your 'friends' flake out on you regularly and don't respond to communications, drop them. It's not worth your time or heartache. Be flexible, sure, but don't be a doormat. I mean, stuff comes up unexpectedly when kids are < 2yrs, but even a busy parent can find the time to answer a text message, if they want to (hopefully in a somewhat timely and apologetic manner). If after a few years they decide to come around and try and reconnect, be forgiving and see where it leads. But if in the here and now they're not putting the effort in, you shouldn't either because that'll just lead to resentment. They're making their choice... Unfortunately, in the poorest, most indirect (perhaps not even conscious) way. And it sucks. I feel for you, I've had it happen to me. Move on.

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Originally Posted by m_b_b

Ultimately, I don't think this is about kids. It's just about competing commitments. I've certainly seen the same thing happen when a friend has a new partner. Or a sick relative. Or parents who are no longer independent. Or a new job. It's not necessarily about living in a place that is "urban" or "diverse" versus rural and less diverse - I've had friendships change when living in either environment. I hope others don't judge me for having children (although the term "breeder" feels a bit judgmental, acknowledging that it may not have been intended that way). I also hope they don't judge me for having a job that requires frequent nights and weekends, because that gets in the way of social interaction too. I do try to do my best to not judge friends for the decisions they make, understanding that only they can set their own priorities.

I've had friends drift nearer and further depending on life circumstances, and find that the good ones always drift back eventually.

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Pretty much this.

Some people are difficult to maintain some relationship with because their job, or passion (say cycling) takes way too much room in in their calendar. It is not good or wrong, it is just life.

Also having kids is not a disease.It can feel as a storm when you get them and transition from kids-free to parents but once the dust settles in it is just another tempo with altered priorities.

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Originally Posted by caleb

I think you're the second person to basically say some version of "it's not them, it's you." To some extent, I'm sure that's true.

Curious though, since so many here are educating the non-parents in parenthood, what obligations do parents have to existing friendships, the violation of which would rightly be judged negatively? Are there any at all? For example, does one need to generally keep commitments? Or respond to communication? If not, why does an exemption exist for parents and nobody else?

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It was predictable that this thread would become a let-me-tell-you-about-parenthood thread with the occasional comments from child-free militants hardened by retarded inquisitions by dim-witted, myopic parents. As I said on the first page, I think the parenthood thing is incidental in the general scheme of things, and I would like to think that the rest of that post addresses your questions, if indirectly.

caleb,
ive read some of this stuff...
it's you, not them.

move on and find friends who are living yr lifestyle.
your old friends have moved on.

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Originally Posted by caleb

I think the root of the tension between people with kids and people without kids is that I have never in my life met a parent that really thought parenting was just one choice among many good choices that should be afforded no more social/ethical/moral weight than saving the whales or serving on the local park board or learning a musical instrument. Maybe such parents exist, but I've never met them.

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Hi. My name's Matt. Nice to meet you.

It really is unfortunate that many parents act this way. And the questions about why someone doesn't have children are never appropriate. Particularly because they are usually laden with this type of moral judgement. It even happens now that I have kids - "Why don't you guys have a third?" "Are you going to try for a boy?" Frankly it's none of their business. I've also had other parents question the use of babysitters so that my wife and I can do things alone. Or so that we can go to work, others can't understand how we would ever choose our jobs over spending more time with our kids. Life is about balance.

Some people suck, and can't understand how others make different choices. I try not to be one of those people, and I try not to have them in my life. Unfortunately, it sounds like your friends might be having trouble seeing past their own lives at this point. Hopefully it's just a phase.

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Originally Posted by caleb

I think the root of the tension between people with kids and people without kids is that I have never in my life met a parent that really thought parenting was just one choice among many good choices that should be afforded no more social/ethical/moral weight than saving the whales or serving on the local park board or learning a musical instrument. Maybe such parents exist, but I've never met them.

It seems pretty straightforward to me why non-parents chafe at treating childrearing as somehow more special than anything they do.

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I think most people who have kids did it because they were supposed to meet some pre-conceived life-milestone and/or it was the easy choice because everyone else was doing it so they thought that was supposed to be what they should do. And unfortunately many people have kids should not because they are terrible parents. So many times people we have met over the years have said, "we never though not having kids was a choice". Making a decision to not have kids and going against the "norm" I believe to be the more difficult decision.

As for the higher purpose crap, having kids to overpopulate the world and mold them into your own image is filled with hubris and I do not buy it; its disingenuous. If you really want to serve a higher purpose, do not have kids and with all that extra time you could save the world. If you really want to be a parent, adopt a child who does not have parents.

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Originally Posted by m_b_b

Hi. My name's Matt. Nice to meet you.

It really is unfortunate that many parents act this way. And the questions about why someone doesn't have children are never appropriate. Particularly because they are usually laden with this type of moral judgement. It even happens now that I have kids - "Why don't you guys have a third?" "Are you going to try for a boy?" Frankly it's none of their business. I've also had other parents question the use of babysitters so that my wife and I can do things alone. Or so that we can go to work, others can't understand how we would ever choose our jobs over spending more time with our kids. Life is about balance.

Some people suck, and can't understand how others make different choices. I try not to be one of those people, and I try not to have them in my life. Unfortunately, it sounds like your friends might be having trouble seeing past their own lives at this point. Hopefully it's just a phase.

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I agree in that having kids should not be used as a moral compass to show that parents lives have more purpose than those who do not have kids. I will not judge those with kids but do not judge me either because I chose not to have kids.. And when you are rushing off to soccer practice, horseback riding lessons, or mandarin class, know I will be relaxing on my couch, reading the newspaper, and spending time with my amazing wife and not being constantly interrupted by rugrats (or we may just be out for a bike ride).

Thank you for reminding me to never go near the OT section.

@caleb: I once asked my grandfather why we lose friends and his response was direct: "We grow apart, Kris. It just happens."

What's to be done? Honestly: Find new friends without kids. Embrace the solo ride in the mean time.

If you value their friendship, then reach out to them occasionally to say hello. It's the thought that counts. They'll come round or they won't (their life choices have simply just plain taken up all their time and their priorities have shifted - it's no fault of theirs or yours).

And as Richard mentioned earlier, friendships ebb and flow, distance does grow but if they really truly were friends, that never ends.

I have 3 kids. It's not really the kids that are fracturing my social life, its that everyone is getting crazier as they get older. Even more than that it is our jobs that take so much time, interfering with my biking and other social activities.

Sorry to be harsh, but this thread is ridiculous, full of stereotypes, over generalizations and piss poor assumptions. People are people. Complex individuals that rarely fit into a predefined box. We all have our strengths and our failings. Wonderful people come in all shapes and sizes, some with kids and some without. The same goes for assholes. And some people, believe it or not, can be both wonderful and an asshole. If someone judges you for not having kids, eff'em. And if someone judges you for how you parent, eff them too.

As for friendships, or any relationships, the only person you can control is you. If your friends don't act as you'd like, you can either accept that you're growing apart and move on, change your expectations, or change your behavior to be more accommodating and understanding.

All this back and forth on who's judging who or how parents should behave is unbecoming. Again, sorry to be harsh.