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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daltex
Of course the problem is Islam. These acts are are inspired by this religion, right or wrong.
Why is it so difficult for folks to criticsize a religion???
The point is that we are asking Kurds, Iraqis, Jordanians, etc. to bear the brunt of the war against ISIS yet want to turn around and say to them, 'By the way, your religion sucks!'
Individuals can and do say whatever the hell they want. Expecting our leadership to voice simplistic us -v- them crap does not solve the problem these groups present to the world.
Not response to your post so much as the apparent theme of the thread given its title - Extremist groups become relevant in the vacuum created by the huge divide between haves and have nots and the lack of viable leadership in much of the world.
Not unrelated you see the rise of irrational sovereign citizen violence in the U.S. in communities hard hit by unemployment, mortgage foreclosure and other financial issues: DHS intelligence report warns of domestic right-wing terror threat - CNN.com
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cookietruck
Oh yeah, because the Middle East was the veritable definition of stability before the Bush administration.
And you may want to check your calendar, hasn't been president for six years.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miwuksurfer
Except these aren't Christians. The want to create some hybrid politico-religious gov't based on local African mysticism and the laws like the 10 commandments. A bad group of people battling another bad group of people.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cookietruck
Great , you say "naw i don't really have any interest in any testament old or new." at least until you can cherry pick a article that fits your political agenda. BTW that article does not represent Christian doctrine , what Christians believe or practice but is complied to support a narrative, the same narrative you seem to be supporting. The OLD testament is written to the Jews, Christians are not Jews.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
this thread reminded me of this article, had to search through my email to find the link so you guys better read it. it's interesting.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/ma...yt-region&_r=1
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Matthew J
The point is that we are asking Kurds, Iraqis, Jordanians, etc. to bear the brunt of the war against ISIS yet want to turn around and say to them,
I feel pretty confident that the brunt of the war was brought to the Kurds, Iraqis, and Jordanians by ISIS. I'm guessing they would prefer not to be at war, but given the alternative of being murdered, they seem willing to fight for their lives, land, and culture. Self preservervation is a great motivator.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loki
Great , you say "naw i don't really have any interest in any testament old or new." at least until you can cherry pick a article that fits your political agenda. BTW that article does not represent Christian doctrine , what Christians believe or practice but is complied to support a narrative, the same narrative you seem to be supporting. The OLD testament is written to the Jews, Christians are not Jews.
haha, my political agenda?
my point was and is, that violence is not solely found in islamic religious texts.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
This is the lesson to be learned. "The enemies of my enemy is my friend " is a load of bullshit. We have no friends in this region.
We will arm and train an army to fight Isis. Two years after isis is defeated we will be fighting the force we assembled and armed to defeat Isis.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daltex
This is the lesson to be learned. "The enemies of my enemy is my friend " is a load of bullshit. We have no friends in this region.
We will arm and train an army to fight Isis. Two years after isis is defeated we will be fighting the force we assembled and armed to defeat Isis.
What? That's crazy talk, when has anything like that EVER happened?
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cookietruck
haha, my political agenda?
my point was and is, that violence is not solely found in islamic religious texts.
And my point is you Called out the Catholic Church and Christians using Scriptures that don't apply to them directly.
"but doesn't the bible have scriptures that reference owning slaves and things women arent allowed to do so on and so forth...
does that make all catholics or christians a "problem" too? "
I guess it was George W who was acting on old testament scriptures , and there is no political agenda implied in you going to the trouble to drag him out and post his picture here.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daltex
We have no friends in this region.
We will arm and train an army to fight Isis. Two years after isis is defeated we will be fighting the force we assembled and armed to defeat Isis.
If by 'region' you mean Syria, perhaps. Turkey has been a member of NATO since 1952. Jordan and the United States have cooperated on defense and other issues since the 1980s. The U.S. have troops stationed among the Gulf States and a major Naval base in Qatar. Only three years on so things may change, but the Somali Federal Government has remained as good an ally as its unstable circumstances can allow.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loki
And my point is you Called out the Catholic Church and Christians using Scriptures that don't apply to them directly.
"but doesn't the bible have scriptures that reference owning slaves and things women arent allowed to do so on and so forth...
does that make all catholics or christians a "problem" too? "
I guess it was George W who was acting on old testament scriptures , and there is no political agenda implied in you going to the trouble to drag him out and post his picture here.
oh come on, you can't draw some conclusions here with the Bush meme?
whats ironic is some people want to crush ISIS just like they wanted to crush Assad about 6-12 months ago maybe. (just like we overthrew Hussein)
turns out, ISIS was fighting alongside the rebels in Syria and then decided to split from them. How much stronger would ISIS be if we overthrew Assad? would ISIS even exist if we never overthrew Hussein?
what if we do nothing? i guess i do have a political agenda...it's ISIS isn't on our soil so we don't worry about it too much...
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cookietruck
This was a good read. Thanks!
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
In theory I'm with ya. Let's just get out and let them have at it. Our dependence on Saudi oil won't allow us to sit by and watch though. I'm guessing we are the Saudi guards, so to speak, and with ISIS undoubtedly eyeing up Mecca and Medina, and the Sunni Saudi army questionable in strength, the Saudi royals to a great extent rely on us as we do them. They have already requested more US support, so I think that speaks volumes. ISIS wants, no... NEEDS, to occupy those two major cities.
I am beginning to suspect that you didn't read the article that spawned this discussion. It argues that ISIS has no interest in either Mecca or Medina. It is much more interested in the city of Dabiq in Syria. Which it holds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daltex
Quote:
Originally Posted by
miwuksurfer
It's wholly and unequivocally intellectually dishonest to draw a moral equivalency between these statistically invisible events and the ongoing, organized, well financed onslaught of Islamic terrorism.
Not if your point is that it's OK to conflate an extremist branch of a religion with the religion as a whole. Yeah, ISIS is bigger than Lehava. Its leaders and followers are still a small minority on the fringes of Muslim orthodoxy. Conflating their beliefs with "Islam" is a serious category error.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loki
Great , you say "naw i don't really have any interest in any testament old or new." at least until you can cherry pick a article that fits your political agenda. BTW that article does not represent Christian doctrine , what Christians believe or practice but is complied to support a narrative, the same narrative you seem to be supporting. The OLD testament is written to the Jews, Christians are not Jews.
I'm no Christian, but I am a Jew. And if you think Judaism is the literal interpretation of the Old Testament/Tanakh narrative, you are sorely misinformed. The only Jews who believe it's a literal narration of actual events are radically orthodox.
But I'm not facile enough to tell you what Jews believe. There's tremendous latitude in interpretation, practice and belief. Just like with Christians. Just like with Muslims.
ISIS is our enemy. Al Qaeda is our enemy. The Saudi royal house should be our enemy. Islam is not our enemy.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
--- that vietnam vet..
a movie that caught my attention relative to the above..,"kingdom of heaven.."
my family heritage is masonic, scottish rite & shrine of which i was a member of each at 21 years of age..
i received the 33rd degree 18 years back..
i share this with you, because i do not practice what i was a part of -- "i believe good people can do good things outside of closed
tiled doors.."
a lady i met in chester helped me find what i was looking for:
"when he realized that he was actually tearing at the fabric of oneness he believed he
was working to sustain, he stepped through the gate of dropping self-righteous thinking and behavior and made a radical shift that affected every aspect
of his life.." (the essential of dogen, writings of the great zen master..)
no more killing for me.., for the monetary beast that justified the self-righteous within--"for the good of the cause / end justifies the means.."
ronnie, thanks for nippering
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davids
I am beginning to suspect that you didn't read the article that spawned this discussion. It argues that ISIS has no interest in either Mecca or Medina. It is much more interested in the city of Dabiq in Syria. Which it holds.
I read just about every linked article in this thread, from start to finish.
ISIS does indeed want those two cities. How could a caliphate NOT want the two most holy cities of Islam? Jerusalem is high on that list as well. You have seen the 5 year plan, haven't you?
Mecca and Medina are main ISIS target, says Hassan Nasrallah - Iraqi News
See the Terrifying ISIS Map Showing Its 5-Year Expansion Plan - ABC News
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davids
I'm no Christian, but I am a Jew. And if you think Judaism is the literal interpretation of the Old Testament/Tanakh narrative, you are sorely misinformed. The only Jews who believe it's a literal narration of actual events are radically orthodox.
But I'm not facile enough to tell you what Jews believe. There's tremendous latitude in interpretation, practice and belief. Just like with Christians. Just like with Muslims..
Right here is the central problem with pointing to ISIS or AQ and saying they demonstrate a problem with Islam. Religion being a thing of the imagination varies greatly among those imaging.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davids
ISIS is our enemy. Al Qaeda is our enemy. The Saudi royal house should be our enemy. Islam is not our enemy.
Exactly.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davids
I'm no Christian, but I am a Jew. And if you think Judaism is the literal interpretation of the Old Testament/Tanakh narrative, you are sorely misinformed. The only Jews who believe it's a literal narration of actual events are radically orthodox.
I would not even pretend to know what Jews believe about the old testament/Tanakh in any form, literal included, or any of the workings of Judaism. What I know , is Christianity is not Judaism.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
davids
Islam is not our enemy.
Unless you happen to live in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc and happen to be a woman, gay, child born out of wedlock, or a non-believer.
Because then Islam is your enemy. Gays are jailed or stoned. Rape victims punished. Rampant infanticide in Pakistan. Women not allowed to travel without being accompanied by a male family member.
I find it easy to criticize a religion that inspires such things. I'm shocked that most can't.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
These things give me a headache just thinking about them. There is really no solution. When you have a group of young people without a pot to piss in, anything looks better than what they have got. Three hots and a cot ain't all that bad. We talked about our Civil War and slavery, but yet it was waged by less than 1 in 1,000 Southern soldiers who could afford to own a slave vs 1 in 1,000 Northern soldiers that were anything but indentured workers in a factory or dirt farmers. Then we look at all the genocide in Africa with the "boy soldiers" that again hadn't a pot to piss in controlled by a bunch of guys living the high life and not getting dirty.
It seems no matter where the war is, the rich politicos get the impoverished locals to give their lives in war and land/title/money changes hands with the big dogs.
Yea, we can blame the Bush(s), the Clintons, the Regans, the Carters, the Kennedys, the Franklins, the Jeffersons and the Washingtons for getting us into a war or five, but the bottom line is the money and greed of the powers that be that seem to control global politics get the masses into shit that they really don't belong. The Big wars I and II cost millions of lives and what really was accomplished? In Americas view Germany, Italy, and Japan ended up our "friends" and or Allied partner USSR was our enemy. You can't make this shit up. Bin Laden is our buddy against the Russians then Public Enemy #1 15 years later. Sadam is the cement of the Middle East then we hang him. Now we seem to think he wasn't as bad as the new guys. Good thinking politicos.
I know that I will never understand Middle Eastern thought, but it just seems to me that the ones with the power at the time run the show at the expense of the guys without a pot to piss in no matter what part of the world they come from. Obama has done a pretty good job of not getting that shit on himself, but the next couple years may be pretty ugly in his world. Good luck, I need to go out and ride more.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
Except these aren't Christians. The want to create some hybrid politico-religious gov't based on local African mysticism and the laws like the 10 commandments. A bad group of people battling another bad group of people.
Dude, that exactly 100% describes ISIS. Just replace "Christians" with "Muslims."
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
Yeah this guy, whoever he is, also said in the article that you linked to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by some nutjob
Nasrallah said in a speech in the anniversary of the ‘Martyrs Leaders’ reported by IraqiNews.com, “The whole world acknowledged that ISIS has become a threat to the security of the region and the world. It is only Israel that does not consider it a threat,” pointing out that, “ISIS and other terrorist organizations do whatever serves the power of Israel and United States.”
Totally a reliable source of information.
PS since I actually check who is writing things before I read them and was puzzled as to why the link in the first post had no author (surely MSN is not creating original content), the original article was published in the Atlantic: http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-wants/384980/
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Personally I thought the Atlantic article was a little weak. Seemed to have conclusions that it set out to illustrate, ignoring other possible or even more credible points of view.
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...lam-says-isis/
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lukasz
Dude, that exactly 100% describes ISIS. Just replace "Christians" with "Muslims."
Except ISIS is actually trying to follow the Koran to the very last word, and the "christians" in that link are not at all trying to follow the bible. Did you do any research on the "Lord's Army" and Kony? They pretty much want to infuse the 10 commandments....which are kind of like universal truths.. (don't steal, don't murder, yadda, yadda) and infuse it with the local African mysticism.
Quote:
Yeah this guy, whoever he is, also said in the article that you linked to:
Totally a reliable source of information.
PS since I actually check who is writing things before I read them and was puzzled as to why the link in the first post had no author (surely MSN is not creating original content), the original article was published in the Atlantic:
What ISIS Really Wants - The Atlantic
Not sure where you are going with this. I agree, the guy is a little nutty. The whole idea seems nutty. I just grabbed a link to show ISIS has intentions of going after Mecca and Medina.
Is the BBC a better source?
BBC News - Islamic State sets sights on Saudi Arabia
I would think this would be a well established fact, especially since ISIS said it.
We can keep putting names to the groups and claiming that group is the enemy, but there is a common denominator here.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Oh, cool. This is like if they had the Internet during the Crusades.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daltex
Unless you happen to live in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc and happen to be a woman, gay, child born out of wedlock, or a non-believer.
Because then Islam is your enemy. Gays are jailed or stoned. Rape victims punished. Rampant infanticide in Pakistan. Women not allowed to travel without being accompanied by a male family member.
I find it easy to criticize a religion that inspires such things. I'm shocked that most can't.
"Gays are jailed or stoned." Current sanctioned law in Uganda- by those professing christianity, openly supported in advocacy and funding by American extremist fundamentalists
"Rampant infanticide in Pakistan"- Substitute Rwanda in the 90s, supported by catholic officials
Not to mention our own, murican brand of ISIS, the KKK, who certainly looked to their brand of christian beliefs to inspire and justify their atrocities. I'm tempted to link to photographs that can be easily searched online showing the strange fruit of charred hanging bodies surrounded by laughing white men, but I would like to sleep tonight. It went on for many decades, much longer than the (so far) history of Al Qaeda or ISIS, and it claimed thousands of victims, and some would argue that it's still not completely over. My point being that it's a senseless argument to attempt to compare which brand of theism is responsible for violence and atrocity. Islam is not the enemy. Islam is only a (or many versions of) a belief system. We need to stop trying to reduce an extremely complex situation into our own neat little boxes of pre-determined ideas based on limited information presented largely by media sources with flawed agenda.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Daltex
Unless you happen to live in Pakistan, Iraq, Syria, Saudi Arabia, etc and happen to be a woman, gay, child born out of wedlock, or a non-believer.
Because then Islam is your enemy. Gays are jailed or stoned. Rape victims punished. Rampant infanticide in Pakistan. Women not allowed to travel without being accompanied by a male family member.
I find it easy to criticize a religion that inspires such things. I'm shocked that most can't.
I find myself agreeing with this... but I'm an atheist and equal opportunity criticizer of all religions, although Islam seems a bit more 'stone age' than most to me. Maybe it's just that Islam takes a harder line on doing the cafeteria thing like many christians; it seems to be, by definition, more of an all or nothing deal. It all just seems totally nuts to me and I'd rather figure out how to stop it than argue semantics of who apologizes for who.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
-- very different to spill blood and take blood relevant to spilling and taking by proxy..
ronnie
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Focus on Islam as the "enemy" is a fool's mission. Because Islam is a belief system like any other theism. You will never "defeat" a belief system- it's been tried many times through history- crusades, missionaries, communism... how do do propose to obliterate a religion- especially one professed by a quarter of the world's population? As the OP's article proposes, we can use nuanced knowledge of how ISIS uses a rigid and strident interpretation of Islamic texts to justify their violence as a means to understand how to contain them or reduce their virulence. The enemy is ISIS, a group of people, not Islam, a belief system. To say that Islam is the enemy makes no sense.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZenNMotion
Not to mention our own, murican brand of ISIS, the KKK, who certainly looked to their brand of christian beliefs to inspire and justify their atrocities. I'm tempted to link to photographs that can be easily searched online showing the strange fruit of charred hanging bodies surrounded by laughing white men, but I would like to sleep tonight. It went on for many decades, much longer than the (so far) history of Al Qaeda or ISIS, and it claimed thousands of victims, and some would argue that it's still not completely over. My point being that it's a senseless argument to attempt to compare which brand of theism is responsible for violence and atrocity. Islam is not the enemy. Islam is only a (or many versions of) a belief system. We need to stop trying to reduce an extremely complex situation into our own neat little boxes of pre-determined ideas based on limited information presented largely by media sources with flawed agenda.
ISIS parallels Nazi's more than any other group.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZenNMotion
"Gays are jailed or stoned." Current sanctioned law in Uganda- by those professing christianity, openly supported in advocacy and funding by American extremist fundamentalists
"Rampant infanticide in Pakistan"- Substitute Rwanda in the 90s, supported by catholic officials
Not to mention our own, murican brand of ISIS, the KKK, who certainly looked to their brand of christian beliefs to inspire and justify their atrocities. I'm tempted to link to photographs that can be easily searched online showing the strange fruit of charred hanging bodies surrounded by laughing white men, but I would like to sleep tonight. It went on for many decades, much longer than the (so far) history of Al Qaeda or ISIS, and it claimed thousands of victims, and some would argue that it's still not completely over. My point being that it's a senseless argument to attempt to compare which brand of theism is responsible for violence and atrocity. Islam is not the enemy. Islam is only a (or many versions of) a belief system. We need to stop trying to reduce an extremely complex situation into our own neat little boxes of pre-determined ideas based on limited information presented largely by media sources with flawed agenda.
You are incorrect.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
I believe religious extremism is the enemy.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joosttx
I believe religious extremism is the enemy.
But if you believe the text , it is not extremism, it's what's required to participate.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Will Neide
Except ISIS is actually trying to follow the Koran to the very last word, and the "christians" in that link are not at all trying to follow the bible.
No, they definitely are not. The Quran, like the Bible, says a lot of horrible stuff and a lot of very nice stuff. Books don't kill people. Yes, the BBC is a much better source, thank you. I saw that crazy crap about Israel supporting ISIS and closed the page.
Here is a rebuttal to the Atlantic article:
What The Atlantic Gets Dangerously Wrong About ISIS And Islam | ThinkProgress
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Loki
But if you believe the text , it is not extremism, it's what's required to participate.
haha. good one bro.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ZenNMotion
None. NONE of these events justifies islam's heinous oppression and treatment of women, children, gays and unbelievers OR should it shield Islam from criticism.
And the comparison to the KKK is just silly.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. To generalize anything about what Muslims "believe" or "do" beyond some very basic generalizations is a category error of the most basic type.
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Re: So it's jobs they want eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monadnocky
There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world. To generalize anything about what Muslims "believe" or "do" beyond some very basic generalizations is a category error of the most basic type.
okay..one of the very basic generalizations is the institutionalized oppression of women. Not hundreds of women in some obscure sect, many millions of women. Oppressed by devout men who would never dream of being a terrorist or have no interest in jihad. Please don't point out that many religions in history have oppressed women; we all know that. I'm talking out about now, about institutionally mandated oppression in statistically significant numbers, not some cult leader in Idaho with 30 wives. Don't confuse a hiccup with a heart attack.
Again, the defense or justifications come from a general unease of being critical of people who look different, or who may be lower on the totem pole of life. The religious right in this country is subject to much criticism, and I rarely (read: never)see anyone outside of them jumping to their defense or trying to protect them from generalizations.
