Leonard Peltier

[holliscx]

I just saw that Biden commuted Leonard Peltier's life sentence to home confinement. He's sick and dying.

It was brought to my attention by a post by Indigo Girl Emily Saliers. I grew up an Indigo Girls fan and have always been aware of Leonard Peltier because the IGs are big Native American activists.

I noticed Amnesty International and many others support Leonard Peltier. But I glanced at the case — I know I'm oversimplifying — but I read that Peltier was traveling in a van with some other Native Americans. They stopped and jumped out and started shooting at 2 FBI agents who were killed. Peltier had an AR-15 and the car was riddled with AR-15 bullets but he claims "he didn't kill the FBI agents."

I understand the trial was dodgy and stuff but what is the case for Peltier's innocence? Whether or not his bullet struck the agents, and I would assume spraying AR-15 bullets would have a high likely hit rate, but the FBI agents didn't initiate the shootout so I'm scratching my head trying to understand why everyone says Peltier's innocent? I was born around the time this happened I believe

[72gmc]

I am no expert on the case but I recommend Incident at Oglala, a PBS piece on the case: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0104504/

Peter Mathiessen wrote a book that I’ve only read an abstract of (this was at a time when a teacher was boring me to death with a different Mathiessen book, I need to revisit this): https://indigenouspeoplesresources.c...w1hD1Si2Ho1Qsi

[j44ke]

This pardon may have more to do with his health than whether or not he is innocent. I don't think Presidential pardons are typically equivalent to a judgment of innocence. There are a lot of reasons Presidential pardons are given, but AFAIK the President is not required to explain their motivation for giving one.

[bigbill]

I presented at the 2023 Northern Great Plains History Conference in Sioux Falls. I presented a paper on the Crow Tribe in the SCOTUS, specifically Wyoming v Herrera in 2019. The conference was also a commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Second Wounded Knee in 1973. I met and had round table discussion with all the surviving Lakota members who were involved. Peltier was a member of AIM and not part of the larger discussion of the mistreatment of the Lakota and Ogallala Lakota members. The evidence against Peltier was pretty damning and that was part of the presentation by the surviving members, but the BIA and local Lakota government appeared to be run by bribes and threats. It was an honor to meet the Ogallala Lakota and AIM members that made history, but not much mention was made of Peltier.

I work with Native historians for Hualapai, Navajo, Hopi, Crow, and Arapaho, and the common thread is the infighting within tribal clans, much of which contributed to Wounded Knee. I'll start a new project this summer with the Crow concerning boundaries of the 1851 and 1868 treaties, but I have to tread carefully because of clans who dislike each other. As a culture, beginning in the second half of the eighteenth century, put Native clans together in groups for simplicity when negotiating treaties even though the negotiators were only from one or two clans out half a dozen or more lumped together. There are so many things we did wrong and continue to do.

[vertical_doug]

I just saw that Biden commuted Leonard Peltier's life sentence to home confinement. He's sick and dying.

It was brought to my attention by a post by Indigo Girl Emily Saliers. I grew up an Indigo Girls fan and have always been aware of Leonard Peltier because the IGs are big Native American activists.

I noticed Amnesty International and many others support Leonard Peltier. But I glanced at the case — I know I'm oversimplifying — but I read that Peltier was traveling in a van with some other Native Americans. They stopped and jumped out and started shooting at 2 FBI agents who were killed. Peltier had an AR-15 and the car was riddled with AR-15 bullets but he claims "he didn't kill the FBI agents."

I understand the trial was dodgy and stuff but what is the case for Peltier's innocence? Whether or not his bullet struck the agents, and I would assume spraying AR-15 bullets would have a high likely hit rate, but the FBI agents didn't initiate the shootout so I'm scratching my head trying to understand why everyone says Peltier's innocent? I was born around the time this happened I believe

When I was a teenager at this time, AIM was constantly in the news for violence. There was a lot of prejudice in the area against native Americans from central Minnesota through to the Dakotas. I think the issue is the two FBI agents were wounded in the shootout, and then shot at close range by the 'Wichita AR-15' which the FBI claim was fired by Peltier. The question was whether Peltier pulled the trigger or one of the other defendants. Peltier was extradited from Canada on questionable testimony and evidence for starters. Several of the witnesses recanted their testimony saying they were coerced. The other defendants were acquitted after their trial was moved to Cedar Rapids Iowa because it was thought they could not get fair jury trial in South Dakota.

As Bill pointed out, the fear of violences, the fear of the FBI counter intelligence operations on the reservations post Wounded Knee, the intra-clan issues, all lead to reasonable doubt. Two FBI agents were executed. But was it Peltier who pulled that trigger for which he was given two consecutive life sentences?

For former President Biden to give him a pardon on compassion to live out the short remainder of his life, is different than giving him a full pardon. It's a very sad chapter of our history.
The question is not how can you be sure he was innocent, the question is how can you be sure he was guilty? You have to be guilty beyond a reaonable doubt. You are asking the wrong question.

[holliscx]

This pardon may have more to do with his health than whether or not he is innocent. I don't think Presidential pardons are typically equivalent to a judgment of innocence. There are a lot of reasons Presidential pardons are given, but AFAIK the President is not required to explain their motivation for giving one.

Yeah, it was very clear that Biden's pardon didn't exonerate him but simply changing where he would serve his sentence due to his decline and age. Re: innocence I was referring to the whole trial and life sentence.

I presented at the 2023 Northern Great Plains History Conference in Sioux Falls. I presented a paper on the Crow Tribe in the SCOTUS, specifically Wyoming v Herrera in 2019. The conference was also a commemoration of the 50th anniversary of the Second Wounded Knee in 1973. I met and had round table discussion with all the surviving Lakota members who were involved. Peltier was a member of AIM and not part of the larger discussion of the mistreatment of the Lakota and Ogallala Lakota members. The evidence against Peltier was pretty damning and that was part of the presentation by the surviving members, but the BIA and local Lakota government appeared to be run by bribes and threats. It was an honor to meet the Ogallala Lakota and AIM members that made history, but not much mention was made of Peltier.

I work with Native historians for Hualapai, Navajo, Hopi, Crow, and Arapaho, and the common thread is the infighting within tribal clans, much of which contributed to Wounded Knee. I'll start a new project this summer with the Crow concerning boundaries of the 1851 and 1868 treaties, but I have to tread carefully because of clans who dislike each other. As a culture, beginning in the second half of the eighteenth century, put Native clans together in groups for simplicity when negotiating treaties even though the negotiators were only from one or two clans out half a dozen or more lumped together. There are so many things we did wrong and continue to do.

Indigo Girls wrote a song called Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee or actually it was probably a cover, anyway, they've been major proponents and activists working with Winona LaDuke and an organization called Honor the Earth that they founded together.

When I was a teenager at this time, AIM was constantly in the news for violence. There was a lot of prejudice in the area against native Americans from central Minnesota through to the Dakotas. I think the issue is the two FBI agents were wounded in the shootout, and then shot at close range by the 'Wichita AR-15' which the FBI claim was fired by Peltier. The question was whether Peltier pulled the trigger or one of the other defendants. Peltier was extradited from Canada on questionable testimony and evidence for starters. Several of the witnesses recanted their testimony saying they were coerced. The other defendants were acquitted after their trial was moved to Cedar Rapids Iowa because it was thought they could not get fair jury trial in South Dakota.

As Bill pointed out, the fear of violences, the fear of the FBI counter intelligence operations on the reservations post Wounded Knee, the intra-clan issues, all lead to reasonable doubt. Two FBI agents were executed. But was it Peltier who pulled that trigger for which he was given two consecutive life sentences?

For former President Biden to give him a pardon on compassion to live out the short remainder of his life, is different than giving him a full pardon. It's a very sad chapter of our history.
The question is not how can you be sure he was innocent, the question is how can you be sure he was guilty? You have to be guilty beyond a reaonable doubt. You are asking the wrong question.

Thanks for sharing what you wrote. I've heard "Free Leonard Peltier" my whole life but not really known anything about him so I was surprised to see his name in the news yesterday.

I poked around a tiny bit and a woman he raped and killed, Anna Mae Aquash, who was going to testify against him kept coming up. I don't know anything about this either but people were giving Peltier a pass on the FBI agents shooting but not this woman. It sounds like that was something very ugly.

You've got to be a lawyer with that last line. Full disclosure: We're watching Better Call Saul!

[j44ke]

...

You've got to be a lawyer with that last line. Full disclosure: We're watching Better Call Saul!

No, you just have to believe the Constitution is central to the system of justice in this country and protection of civil liberties one of the most important guarantees contained within. Vertical Doug is 100% correct.

[vertical_doug]

Indigo Girls wrote a song called Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee or actually it was probably a cover, anyway, they've been major proponents and activists working with Winona LaDuke and an organization called Honor the Earth that they founded together.

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee is a famous 1970's book written about the injustices to various tribes of Native Americans. It's an interesting read.

[takashi]

I poked around a tiny bit and a woman he raped and killed, Anna Mae Aquash, who was going to testify against him kept coming up. I don't know anything about this either but people were giving Peltier a pass on the FBI agents shooting but not this woman. It sounds like that was something very ugly.

snipped

Do you have a link for this allegation you state as fact?

[lumpy]

Biden commuted Peltier's prison sentence to home confinement. It isn't a pardon.

[bigbill]

I think if Peltier were on trial today, he would not have been convicted of murder but perhaps manslaughter. It is believed that he executed the wounded FBI agents but the evidence was circumstantial. The clan issue within tribes would likely affect a jury of his peers, but since Congress has plenary power over Reservations, it would be a federal trial.

The clan issue is huge and something our country enabled. Imagine you live in a small town and developers approach a neighborhood on the edge of town and negotiate the purchase of the entire town and money is exchanged. That neighborhood is now more powerful than all others. This is what happened beginning in the seventeenth century. Colonists negotiated with the most convenient tribe who sold land belonging to other clans. Some of this was due to a misunderstanding of land ownership, some was due to greed. We live next to the Hualapai Reservation which borders the south Rim of the Grand Canyon. The tribe owns Grand Canyon West which is a big tourist trap but brings in a lot of money to certain members of the tribe within a certain clan. Parts of Peach Springs, the town in the reservation, has areas of wealth and desperate poverty. The tribal schools are terrible because the more wealthy send their kids to good boarding schools in Utah and New Mexico. In Wyoming, where we are moving in the next few months, I work with a professor emeritus from Little Bighorn College who has four felony convictions due to some shady deals and accusations from a rival clan within his own tribe. His trial convicted him, but before sentencing, a new judge was assigned. She went off on the prosecution and asked them to prove their charges, which they could not. The judge could not change the verdict, but sentenced the defendants to house arrest which allowed for the professor to speak at events and travel with permission.

[lumpy]

Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee is a famous 1970's book written about the injustices to various tribes of Native Americans. It's an interesting read.

I read that book when I was 18, going through the Badlands and Black Hills on my first bike tour. It was an intense experience that has stayed with me.

[Mabouya]

Bumping this thread to state the following:

I think this whole presidential pardon / commutation thing should either be ended or totally revamped with new guardrails put in place. It's gotten to the point where both sides are abusing it for their own purposes and it's now a farce.

[holliscx]

OT but a Spanish man just stopped me on the street while I was walking my dog to ask if I like Trump and Musk. If you guys think news in the US is biased all they're fed here is sensationalist click bait stories not too different from what we've been fed our whole lives for Russia and China but then this man mentioned a letter he read recently - I think it was a letter - he said that Jimmy Carter wrote. The gist was that China doesn't get involved in wars and uses its money to build its own infrastructure whereas the US has an active military and is involved in a lot of warlike conflicts while infrastructure takes a backseat. Don't anyone take offense I'm summarizing a quick conversation on the street right after I got home from 115 kms on the bike. But does anyone know this letter that the man was talking about?

Re: the pardon theater above I couldn't agree more but both ways. Biden was just as bad as Trump but both acted like high schoolers. Gotta take that away. Presidents should be way above that 100%

[bigbill]

OT but a Spanish man just stopped me on the street while I was walking my dog to ask if I like Trump and Musk. If you guys think news in the US is biased all they're fed here is sensationalist click bait stories not too different from what we've been fed our whole lives for Russia and China but then this man mentioned a letter he read recently - I think it was a letter - he said that Jimmy Carter wrote. The gist was that China doesn't get involved in wars and uses its money to build its own infrastructure whereas the US has an active military and is involved in a lot of warlike conflicts while infrastructure takes a backseat. Don't anyone take offense I'm summarizing a quick conversation on the street right after I got home from 115 kms on the bike. But does anyone know this letter that the man was talking about?

Re: the pardon theater above I couldn't agree more but both ways. Biden was just as bad as Trump but both acted like high schoolers. Gotta take that away. Presidents should be way above that 100%

Carter's comments concerning China are in a speech. https://www.cartercenter.org/news/ed...rth-korea.html

[takashi]

"We also have developed about $21 trillion in deficit spending in the United States. That’s primarily because we stay at war all the time. We spend a lot of our resources on warfare. That’s beside the point, but the thing is that China is now destined to be one of the countries that will replace the United States in the future as the number one country in the world. Maybe not militarily, but I think it’s going to be the number one economic power in the world soon."
- Jimmy Carter


"Don’t forget the real business of the War is buying and selling. The murdering and the violence are self-policing, and can be entrusted to non-professionals." - Thomas Pynchon