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Thread: Premiership Football

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    Default Premiership Football

    Are seasons always like this? Last games I watched seriously were in 2004. I've hit a couple duds, but most games - even ones that should be entirely unbalanced on skills - have been at least good. And a bunch of games have been great. There is always some drama of some sort. Imagine feeling sorry for Pep Guardiola as his team pooches another one. And rooting for Manchester United? Who does that? Chelsea's inevitable crawl up the standings. Then the underlings - Crystal Palace, Leicester, Ipswich, Southampton - try and try again. And everyone is running.

    I don't like all the round the barnyard playing from the back.

    I don't like faking fouls.

    I do like Marc Cucurella's hair.

    Caicedo may be the most important player on Chelsea.

    Got to love the midfield game.

    Liverpool just keeps on winning.
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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    On a short work trip to England with a coworker who was a former expat, we hoped to attend a Premiership match. I saw an evening contest in Millwall that fit our schedule. His response: “They’ll beat us up in Millwall.”

    I should start watching again.
    Dan Fuller, local bicycle enthusiast

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Are seasons always like this? Last games I watched seriously were in 2004. I've hit a couple duds, but most games - even ones that should be entirely unbalanced on skills - have been at least good. And a bunch of games have been great. There is always some drama of some sort. Imagine feeling sorry for Pep Guardiola as his team pooches another one. And rooting for Manchester United? Who does that? Chelsea's inevitable crawl up the standings. Then the underlings - Crystal Palace, Leicester, Ipswich, Southampton - try and try again. And everyone is running.

    I don't like all the round the barnyard playing from the back.

    I don't like faking fouls.

    I do like Marc Cucurella's hair.

    Caicedo may be the most important player on Chelsea.

    Got to love the midfield game.


    Liverpool just keeps on winning.
    Midfielders, especially the defensive midfielders, often are the linchpins of their respective teams.

    LFC took a serious stumble in 2022-2023 when their aging midfielders lost a bit of pace and could no longer run. At this level, being late by half a yard is the difference between a pass getting to its intended target to the pass getting deflected away. And for the two mids on LFC (a DM and a more advanced mid), they each lost just enough that the defense side of things fell apart and LFC became porous. Ditto for Man. Utd. when Casemiro lost his legs.

    Same thing is happening to Guardiola's City this year, and the absence of Rodri shows just how important the role is. Of course, Pep himself was that all important (solo) holding midfielder during Cruijff's golden years at Barça, winning 4 consecutive La Liga titles and an European Cup in the process. He in turn relied on Busquets during Barça's second golden period for the same function. It took him a while to identify the same sort of player when he arrived at City, molding a former attacking midfielder into a single defensive mid; and the mantle was then passed onto Rodri after the latter spent a good two years as the understudy.

    The top-tier modern DM role is an utterly unique one, as the very best have to have decent (not necessarily great) pace, decent frame (at least 180 cm tall), tactical guile (the ability to break up play, all the better if fouls are committed but does not result in a booking), good on-the-ball technique, and good mid-range passing ability. This in effect combines what used to be two different roles, the enforcer and the metronome (e.g. Pirlo), into one, thereby freeing up one more player on the offensive side of things.

    I find the overall dynamics of the game, especially from open play, to be endlessly fascinating and intriguing. How players move to complement each other; how coaches strategize to mask deficiencies and improve the odds, etc. It probably took me a good five years of watching just to notice the more important tactical things. Unfortunately, the replays themselves shed very little on the how and why, as many moments when successful strategy are implemented do not result in even an attempt, thereby being completely absent from 10-min long summaries of key moments. If you have access to the Beeb, its Match of the Day program is highly recommended.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    I watch the Peacock replays when on the trainer and some of the announcers are really good. I agree that you'll get a breakdown of the successful moments or the ones that miss by an eyelash but not so much those moments that are more regular but representative of strategy unless eventually they have to recognize Gravenberch in midfield just hoovering up everything in a 30 yard circle and distributing correctly like 95% of the time.

    Watching mid table matches can be really entertaining or some team clawing to escape relegation when they're starting to give themselves a chance. The really frustrating games are when a good team can't seem to pass within five yards of where they need to put it but I can't tell if that's imposed or they're just having a really bad game.
    Tom Ambros

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    I watch the Peacock replays when on the trainer and some of the announcers are really good. I agree that you'll get a breakdown of the successful moments or the ones that miss by an eyelash but not so much those moments that are more regular but representative of strategy unless eventually they have to recognize Gravenberch in midfield just hoovering up everything in a 30 yard circle and distributing correctly like 95% of the time.

    Watching mid table matches can be really entertaining or some team clawing to escape relegation when they're starting to give themselves a chance. The really frustrating games are when a good team can't seem to pass within five yards of where they need to put it but I can't tell if that's imposed or they're just having a really bad game.
    Seeing the transformation of Gravenberch is quite something. Still a work in progress, but few has taken the path of transitioning from a more offensive-oriented mid to a DM, and he’s undertaken it at quite the young age of 22 no less. The ball control abilities honed at the Ajax academy certainly helps, but what has helped even more is his tactical sense and willingness to run the yards. Despite being shifted to DM only at the beginning of this season, he plays that position with the authority of someone who has done it for 5+ years. And his cameo as a makeshift centerback wasn’t half bad either. In contrast, while Mac Allister is a near world class mid in his own right, the slight lack of relative physical attributes (could use another 10 cm and 5-10 kilos) makes him just a tad below the ideal DM.

    And while we are on the topic of LFC (the team for which I have the softest spot, but not a true fan of which as I’m a plastic), both Salah and Szoboszlai have this frustrating tendency to be just a tad off in their passing at times. But at least for Salah, the mad man needs only two chances to make the opposition pay, often after being almost anonymous for 65 minutes.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    There is just something incredible about Chelsea when Madueke and Jackson and Palmer and (sometimes) Neto streak across the field at top speed. They are almost always teetering on the edge of overrunning themselves and/or the ball, but the sight of them zooming on counter-attack is like velociraptors chasing after a squirrel.

    Oh and Cucurella scored a goal. And then got a second yellow after stoppage time (which meant automatic red) when he tried to shake hands with Brentford who didn't really want to shake hands with Cucurella having had enough of his hands all over them all game long. He's intense that Cucurella.
    Last edited by j44ke; 12-17-2024 at 09:02 PM.
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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Chelsea is an enjoyable watch. Skill teams are fun. However, I still think back to Real Madrid playing the beautiful game against Manchester United only to have Rooney rise up with that big square block and head home two against them to win.
    Tom Ambros

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    I get a special joy out of a match that’s not in a big club’s cathedral but rather the home stadium of a smaller team, especially when the weather is appropriate (45 degrees, slanting rain) and the underdogs are on the cusp of an upset.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    I started really watching English football during COVID, after binging every sports docuseries I could find while live sports were on hiatus.
    Ended up rooting for Man City mainly due to Pep, and have been a reasonably avid fan since.

    I think they're finding out this year that while a smaller squad may keep players happy and avoid seeking transfers due to playing time, the sheer number of games these days for top-flight European teams demands more bodies, and they're feeling the brunt of it this year. Rodri said the same about sheer volume, and lo and behold, the Ballon D'or winner is out for the year. KDB and Stones are feeling the accumulation over the last half decade. Letting Alvarez go was a mistake. Etc.

    That said, the week-in, week-out EPL is exciting. I don't carve time out for specific games, but I will put on any match in the background on weekends with the kids while we're doing stuff around the house. I can't say the same for the NFL anymore.
    my name is Matt

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by 72gmc View Post
    I get a special joy out of a match that’s not in a big club’s cathedral but rather the home stadium of a smaller team, especially when the weather is appropriate (45 degrees, slanting rain) and the underdogs are on the cusp of an upset.
    Have you heard of the (almost meme-like) phrase "but can he play on a rainy Tuesday night in Stoke"?

    Jest aside, tune into FA Cup third round. Some really interesting matches.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by robin3mj View Post
    I started really watching English football during COVID, after binging every sports docuseries I could find while live sports were on hiatus.
    Ended up rooting for Man City mainly due to Pep, and have been a reasonably avid fan since.
    Hopefully to be taken in jest. But I am curious as to whether you have a glass transition point; and if so, whether it's closer to 115 F or 130 F?

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    Hopefully to be taken in jest. But I am curious as to whether you have a glass transition point; and if so, whether it's closer to 115 F or 130 F?
    Not sure I understand the question, but if it's a jibe on being a frontrunner, I will take full ownership of that charge.
    I am a fan of all my childhood hometown teams, but picking up a new fandom in my 40's for a sport I've come to appreciate more recently, was a new thing for me so why not make it fun.
    my name is Matt

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Years ago I really enjoyed an FA cup match with Chelsea back when Didier Drogba and crew were there playing at some 3rd level team's stadium. It was a total cabbage patch. They were so unused to that it was pretty funny, attempting passes across the surface that got totally random within yards. It brought to mind Ned Harkness when he coached Union College hockey, he'd have the ice warmed up so a fast skating opponent would be neutralized. That third level team's grounds crew knew exactly what they were doing.
    Tom Ambros

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by robin3mj View Post
    Not sure I understand the question, but if it's a jibe on being a frontrunner, I will take full ownership of that charge.
    I am a fan of all my childhood hometown teams, but picking up a new fandom in my 40's for a sport I've come to appreciate more recently, was a new thing for me so why not make it fun.
    Saying often goes that if a joke needs explaining, it’s a poorly constructed joke. It’s a charge to which i plead guilty.

    “Plastics” refer to fans who root for a team despite having little connection, or someone who follows sports in a place far away while having no connection. As I’m not British but consume a lot of footie, I qualify as a plastic.

    Glass transition point is a characteristic property of many plastic materials. The two numbers selected (115 and 130) coincide with the number of charges against Man City, whose owner allegedly resorted to shenanigans in order to pour funds into securing a high-functioning squad. For a long time, it was 115 alleged breaches, but there were new discoveries, so it’s now 130.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tom View Post
    Years ago I really enjoyed an FA cup match with Chelsea back when Didier Drogba and crew were there playing at some 3rd level team's stadium. It was a total cabbage patch. They were so unused to that it was pretty funny, attempting passes across the surface that got totally random within yards. It brought to mind Ned Harkness when he coached Union College hockey, he'd have the ice warmed up so a fast skating opponent would be neutralized. That third level team's grounds crew knew exactly what they were doing.
    A few years ago, Tottenham played away at Marines FC, a club on the 7th tier of the football pyramid and 3 tiers removed from professional league football. That was quite something, like a single-A minor league team playing the NY Mets.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    I half thought your 115 was that reference to the financial charges but you lost me after that.

    Hoping to see a game in Belfast this winter if I can swing it.
    my name is Matt

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    While not an EPL match per se, that game btwn Spurs and Man Utd in the League Cup was gloriously bunkers.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Very interesting and very detailed dissection of the pass from the goalkeeper to the mid-field pivot in football.

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/599...ball-analysis/

    Written by a former pro footballer, Stuart James. Not sure how to get that article outside the paywall.
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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    I watched the Aston Villa - Manchester City match today while on the trainer. I've never seen a midfield so ineffective and a back line get run past so easily in tandem like that. The score line could have been gruesome if any of about eight missed opportunities were made.
    Tom Ambros

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Quote Originally Posted by j44ke View Post
    Very interesting and very detailed dissection of the pass from the goalkeeper to the mid-field pivot in football.

    https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/599...ball-analysis/

    Written by a former pro footballer, Stuart James. Not sure how to get that article outside the paywall.
    I would think principles mentioned in the article (to which I have no access) is as follows.

    An on-the-ground pass to a pivot who can receive the pass in-stride effectively means that at the first line of at least two defending players is bypassed, and the pivot now has yards of space to drive at a second line that is retreating and not set. This is a dangerous situation for the defending team, as its players need to cover large swaths of space, and quite a bit of the cohesive effect of defenders being adjacent is lost. Lateral movements when running lengthwise of the field is also really difficult, so more forward passes can reach their intended targets without being picked off. Key point is taking that on-the-ground pass in-stride and continuing to drive, and this is why most teams would defend by putting someone on the pivot mid, so that the pivot mid receives the pass under pressure and cannot turn, thereby having to pass backwards.

    But if somehow that player can carry the ball forward at pace, the defense is now relatively open.

    I think the opening goal in the Villa vs Man City game illustrates this, though granted, Tielemans is not playing as a pivot here,

    The most illustrative move of the sequence is the one below.



    City is engaged in somewhat of a press. Both of Villa's supposed pivot mids are well covered; Haaland is covering the right CB, with the only seemingly easy option being the left CB. I think that might have been City's intent, to force to ball to the left CB, constricting the playable area in the process.

    There is also where the concept of overloads come in. Tielemans, technically an attacking midfielder, was astute enough to notice the dearth of options his goalkeeper has and decided to drop back to help with build-up, in effect taking up the area where a generic center mid plays and "overloading the midfield". His tracker happens to be a City defender (Stones) in the backline, who is too far away to be an effective marker. As soon as Tieleman recognized that he is unmarked, he moved closer to receive the ground ball (easier to receive and gives defense less time to defend). Stones, having initially been almost 10 meters away from Tieleman, has to run fast linearly just to close down the latter, but in doing so is very prone to get turned, or in his case, be on the receiving end of a Rolling Stones maneuver ;).

    The rest is relatively easy. Cohesion of backline broken by Stones stepping up. Intended recipient of Tieleman's pass has an easy time to latch on because the ball is made into free space without cover. At least a big chance is created.

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    Default Re: Premiership Football

    Having so many EPL matches on boxing day is such a glorious thing. With a nightcap of Match of the Day.

    In fact, the entire two weeks that contain Christmas and New Year is such a great time to spectate, and as someone who started watching late, the LFC 4-3 City match in 2018 and the Leicester 0-4 LFC match on Boxing Day 2019 were particularly memorable.

    Only downside is back when the EPL would arrange matches so that one team didn’t even get 48 hrs to rest and recover. Fortunately, EPL no longer appears to do this, at least in the past few years.

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