The direction of society lately

[ides1056]

What stops him from declaring martial law?

[jclay]

Assuming these could be taken at face value …..have significant proportion of metaphorical arsonists, all the while wanting benefits of a stable government that promotes social welfare, said electorates driven more by a sense of my way or the highway than any rational approach.

So when the most ideal solution isn't available, it's toys out of the pram time, regardless of how much of a mess such an act of defiance leaves or whether someone might get hit in the face with a toy.

We aren't in a heap of trouble solely b/c of an inept counterweight to the GOP (although that certainly doesn't help), we are in a heap of trouble b/c fundamentally, the national ethos is looking out for #1

In order:
Always a possibility but over a month we got to know each other pretty well, and got along swimmingly.

No surprise. Adults act like pissed off 3 year olds frequently. Love the “toys...pram” comment; spot on!

We’re still very much a frontier culture/mentality, queue the Marlboro Man (but keep the bennies of larger society)….and the DP is tactically & strategically incompetent at best.

Isn't this just cutting one's nose off to spite one's face? They'd rather have voted for Bernie twice and yet voted for Trump because they couldn't vote for Bernie? FFS.

See “adults act like pissed off 3 year olds frequently” comment.

I liked Bernie more than Hillary just like I liked McCain more than GW Bush. But seriously…Do we actually believe that the valid takeaway from that election, that Hillary was a flawed/weaker/worse candidate than Bernie? That in hindsight….

Gotta get into the mindset of and understand the other guy. Anger (some for legit reasons even if they wouldn’t have voted for a govt that would have, say, slowed offshoring of US industry & jobs) nationalism, cultural wedge issues and all that jazz are seriously potent drivers, particularly when a large demographic is hurting or/or feel their brand of Imaginary Friend (Inc.) is threatened! Obama’s comment was a bullseye….and really stupid to say. That comment and Hill’s….talk about self inflicted wounds with very long half-lifes.

It showed the democrats really didn't understand representative democracy either.

The democrats need to give the people a choice. This continuing finger on the scale is so off putting to members, it just destroys their chances. In my opinion, this should not even be close but the clueless leadership of the democrats insist on snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

If AOC wants to primary Schumer, she should. He is a big part of the problem not the solution. AOC has her own issues, but at this point, it is the least dirty shirt.

See my “the real $$/power brokers/corporations of/behind the DP would rather have had Trump win 2016 than Sanders” (or any true progressive) comment. That might be less true going forward if the financial market indices start burning up more red ink! In order:
3 x “yup”!

[fastupslowdown]

What stops him from declaring martial law?

same thing that stops Trump from disregarding court decisions. Whoops! He's doing that now.

[jmgorman]

What stops him from declaring martial law?

My guess is that's coming April 2 on "Liberation Day."

[jclay]

Interesting Scientific American article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...ted-for-trump/

[thollandpe]

Half the comments since my last comment are discussing how to blame the Democrats for this mess. How are we going to get out of this if we don;t hold the Republicans responsible for what they’re doing?

Obama’s comment was a bullseye….and really stupid to say. That comment and Hill’s….talk about self inflicted wounds with very long half-lifes.

John, sorry to belabor this and please don’t mistake my exasperation for anger at or criticism of you. It’s just that these folks have been using the language of war for a long time, and are now waging war on more than half of us. And so many of us are drawn into discussing how and who let them in the gate when we should be kicking them the fuck out before they rip any more pipes and wires out of the wall.

I certainly don’t support how Obama and Hillary said those things, but seriously, we’re still discussing those? Why the double standard and where’s the outrage and why no consequences or bristling to some of the shit that tRump has said? Here’s a few that spring to mind…

“I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant. And therefore I’m inspecting it, ‘Is everyone OK?’ You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. And you see these incredible-looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that.”

“Why should I go to that [Aisne-Marne American] cemetery? It’s filled with losers.”

“I better use some tic tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

Re: Charlottesville, after one of the neo-nazis hit and killed someone with his car, “I think there’s blame on both sides.”

Re: calling the widow of a US soldier killed in an ambush, “He knew what he signed up for.”

Re: Coronavirus, that it will “disappear, like a miracle” or just “go away” when the weather gets warmer. Or “supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right? And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs.”

It would be almost impossible to compile a comprehensive list. But no, the black man and the shrill polarizing woman said mean things to me.

[suspectdevice]

Todd,
The disparaging comments from Democratic candidates were the icing on the Let Them Eat Cake ideology that the Democrats have been pushing since ‘92 when they started aggressively attacking precarious people with NAFTA, Biden’s Crime Bill, attacks on food and housing assistance and massive cuts in public sector employment.

Neoliberalism was and is a horrible concept - the privations it engendered are why we now have a lawless dictator.

Voters are NOT swayed by soundbites, they are swayed by their material conditions and their ability to analyze their material conditions.

Because we don’t educate people about what socialism actually is in this country, they will believe it is anything they don’t like- when it’s quite clear to all observers that there’s Socialism for the rich and connected and a Malthusian waking nightmare of Rugged Individiualism for everyone else.

Because the democratic party serves corporate interests, not the interests of the people- it really is their fault that people vote against their self-interests- when the only solutions proposed are Fascist solutions, the people will choose fascism.

[jclay]

Todd:

1) No offense here; I get it.
2) I started a response but it would take me forever and it would still be inadequate.

Suspectdevice is on it but that's still retrospective: How do we turn around this trainwreck, particularly when we're a global hegemon in decline (and denial) with a standad of living and expectations dependent on our former economic/industrial dominance, spending oodles of dosh and blood (particularly of others) trying to retain the crown (which won't succeed), with increasingly capable (and pissed off) global competitors, a population that has thoroughly inculcated that We're #1 , God's on our side and all that jazz? Good question.

Wow, I just threw myself into depression.

How about this one sentence outline: Fix things that matter to those who feel/are disenfranchised, admit where we went wrong, admit where the other side is right, be reasonable with/don't eff up the volatile cultural stuff, do a LOT better marketing of everything, quit exporting wars and supporting the unsupportable, run candidates that can relate to the folks that need remedies and whom we need (economically and electorally), build consensus and get feedback (and pay attention to it) with frequent televised/streamed chats, that sort of thing.

[j44ke]

Democrats made Republicans rape your country. Nice.

The mind-trust behind Reagan grew out of a group of people who rejected the concept that all men are created equal, and from that came the war against the right of every person to have a livable wage, healthcare and truly public education. And all of this animus towards equality came straight out of the desegregation battles of the 50's 60's and 70's, but it originated in the robber baron post-Civil War strategies of monopolies and industry against agriculture. The primary sticking factor is race, and the premise is that social programs are terrific unless black people are allowed to participate. But race merely provided at terrific pry-bar for keeping wages stagnant, killing social programs and holding down labor classes across the board. The whole principle has been deny deny deny, and it has been driven by the right for a long long time.

The two parties have increased their complicity over the years, but the marching drum beat comes from the right.

[caleb]

when the only solutions proposed are Fascist solutions, the people will choose fascism.

A couple years ago I was riding a bus through Rome with a priest. He pointed to the 1930s-era flats lining both sides of the road. On one side, he said, the Fascists had built a block of apartments and put a big banner on it saying roughly, "Public housing brought to you by Mussolini and the Fascist Party."

After the banner went up, the Vatican mobilized and built a bigger block of apartments on the other side of the road and put a banner on it roughly reading, "Public housing brought to you by Pope Pius XI."

For all of the Catholic Church's failings (and they are legion), they understood people and politics.

Our basic problem in the United States today is that nobody is even trying to build the 2025 equivalent of a bigger apartment block.

[jclay]

Democrats made Republicans rape your country. Nice.

I think this is a more accurate framing: The results of decades of DP and GOP behavior & policies have caused enough harm and cultural heartburn to get a large number of people angry enough to support a demonstrably corrupt, destructive, convicted felon and his MAGA party, for the express intent of burning the house down.

[j44ke]

I think this is a more accurate framing: The results of decades of DP and GOP behavior & policies have caused enough harm and cultural heartburn to enough people that got angry enough to support a corrupt, destructive felon and his MAGA party, for the express intent of burning the house down.

Thereby absolving everyone, rather than viewing it as elemental to our nation as a country built on slavery and inequity and this is just the current mass denial of that history.

[gregl]

Democrats made Republicans rape your country. Nice.

The mind-trust behind Reagan grew out of a group of people who rejected the concept that all men are created equal, and from that came the war against the right of every person to have a livable wage, healthcare and truly public education. And all of this animus towards equality came straight out of the desegregation battles of the 50's 60's and 70's, but it originated in the robber baron post-Civil War strategies of monopolies and industry against agriculture. The primary sticking factor is race, and the premise is that social programs are terrific unless black people are allowed to participate. But race merely provided at terrific pry-bar for keeping wages stagnant, killing social programs and holding down labor classes across the board. The whole principle has been deny deny deny, and it has been driven by the right for a long long time.

The two parties have increased their complicity over the years, but the marching drum beat comes from the right.

Edmund Morris's biography of Reagan covers this well. While the book has been criticized for its fictionalized narration, it does illuminate Reagan's backstory. How does a Democratic union leader become a Republican standard bearer? Follow the money...

Greg

[suspectdevice]

https://open.spotify.com/episode/3xB...SS-ws3ZuPsLLsQ

This is a great listen, and entirely relevant to this morning’s coffee talk here.

Abundance.

[echappist]

Our basic problem in the United States today is that nobody is even trying to build the 2025 equivalent of a bigger apartment block.

Out of curiosity (and asking solely seeking to understand), what would such a project look like today, and how much larger would it need to be compared to Biden’s Infrastructure spendings? Would it extend beyond infrastructure and into the realm of social welfare as well?

[zachateseverything]

Half the comments since my last comment are discussing how to blame the Democrats for this mess. How are we going to get out of this if we don;t hold the Republicans responsible for what they’re doing?



John, sorry to belabor this and please don’t mistake my exasperation for anger at or criticism of you. It’s just that these folks have been using the language of war for a long time, and are now waging war on more than half of us. And so many of us are drawn into discussing how and who let them in the gate when we should be kicking them the fuck out before they rip any more pipes and wires out of the wall.

I certainly don’t support how Obama and Hillary said those things, but seriously, we’re still discussing those? Why the double standard and where’s the outrage and why no consequences or bristling to some of the shit that tRump has said? Here’s a few that spring to mind…

“I’m allowed to go in because I’m the owner of the pageant. And therefore I’m inspecting it, ‘Is everyone OK?’ You know, they’re standing there with no clothes. And you see these incredible-looking women. And so I sort of get away with things like that.”

“Why should I go to that [Aisne-Marne American] cemetery? It’s filled with losers.”

“I better use some tic tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful. I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab them by the pussy. You can do anything."

Re: Charlottesville, after one of the neo-nazis hit and killed someone with his car, “I think there’s blame on both sides.”

Re: calling the widow of a US soldier killed in an ambush, “He knew what he signed up for.”

Re: Coronavirus, that it will “disappear, like a miracle” or just “go away” when the weather gets warmer. Or “supposing you brought the light inside the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you’re going to test that too. Sounds interesting, right? And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute. And is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside or almost a cleaning, because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs.”

It would be almost impossible to compile a comprehensive list. But no, the black man and the shrill polarizing woman said mean things to me.

I think it harkens to one of the fundamental problems facing the democrats (and by proxy, liberals). Since the US uses First Past the Post to determine the winner of an election, our political system will always boil down to two major parties along with a handful of third parties that are relegated to play the role of spoiler. These major parties are doing the same coalition building that might happen in a parliamentary system of Government, but here it happens off the books.

To build a potentially winning coalition, the democrats have collected loose support from many different constituencies who might have policy goals that are significantly opposed to one another. In most other countries it would be inconceivable that AOC and Biden were in the same party.

In comparison, the GOP has built the base of their coalition using primarily single issue voters. You have the taxation is theft chuds, the gun nuts, the evangelical christians/forced birthers, and the zero regulation crowd. Those people will vote for anyone as long as their issue is handled the way they want.

The end result is that traditional democratic voters are much more likely to sit out of an election, vote for a third party, or even in some cases vote GOP based off of social wedge issues. They'll do this after a candidate fails a purity test, or become disillusioned when an office holder doesn't get everything(or anything) they want done during their time in office. In office, democratic politicians often fall victim to trying to satisfy everyone and end up satisfying no one.

[vertical_doug]

Our basic problem in the United States today is that nobody is even trying to build the 2025 equivalent of a bigger apartment block.

We are, but now we refer to them as data centers for the cloud or chip fabs. Haven't you been to Arizona or Tennessee?

[echappist]

In comparison, the GOP has built the base of their coalition using primarily single issue voters. You have the taxation is theft chuds, the gun nuts, the evangelical christians/forced birthers, and the zero regulation crowd. Those people will vote for anyone as long as their issue is handled the way they want.

The end result is that traditional democratic voters are much more likely to sit out of an election, vote for a third party, or even in some cases vote GOP based off of social wedge issues. They'll do this after a candidate fails a purity test, or become disillusioned when an office holder doesn't get everything(or anything) they want done during their time in office. In office, democratic politicians often fall victim to trying to satisfy everyone and end up satisfying no one.

Your last paragraph sums up the left leaning voters to a tee.

As for the GOP coalitions, two main questions to ask for each group: a) what do they have to offer and b) what do they want.

1) Everyday voters, many of whom evangelical: a) above all else, votes at the ballot; b) theocratic policies, and perhaps a measly taxcut to the tune of $2k for a family of five.
2) Corporate interests, including donor class (Uihleins, Kochs, et al.): a) campaign money; b) reduced taxes and reduced regulations.
3) Federalist Society members: a) judicial decision; b) placed into position of power.

The money spent by 2) shapes coverage of campaigns and "informs" the decision of 1), who then votes in politicians that draft favorable policies. To ensure the establishment of these policies (and overturning of unfavorable policies), the same politicians appoints 3), thereby providing "dividend" to 1) and 2).

Of course the interests of 1) and 2) often are not fully aligned, with 2) often resorting to various practices to the detriment of 1) (e.g. off-shoring of jobs, hiring of illegal immigrants to deprive jobs to citizens, LBO of otherwise healthy companies, etc.), but when 2) can shape news coverage and throw in red herrings, and with most of 1) too gullible to know what actually hit them, the cycle continues.

One doesn't have to vote GOP to be impressed by the staggering simplicity and efficiency of this cynical cycle.

[fastupslowdown]

Your last paragraph sums up the left leaning voters to a tee.

As for the GOP coalitions, two main questions to ask for each group: a) what do they have to offer and b) what do they want.

1) Everyday voters, many of whom evangelical: a) above all else, votes at the ballot; b) theocratic policies, and perhaps a measly taxcut to the tune of $2k for a family of five.
2) Corporate interests, including donor class (Uihleins, Kochs, et al.): a) campaign money; b) reduced taxes and reduced regulations.
3) Federalist Society members: a) judicial decision; b) placed into position of power.

The money spent by 2) shapes coverage of campaigns and "informs" the decision of 1), who then votes in politicians that draft favorable policies. To ensure the establishment of these policies (and overturning of unfavorable policies), the same politicians appoints 3), thereby providing "dividend" to 1) and 2).

Of course the interests of 1) and 2) often are not fully aligned, with 2) often resorting to various practices to the detriment of 1) (e.g. off-shoring of jobs, hiring of illegal immigrants to deprive jobs to citizens, LBO of otherwise healthy companies, etc.), but when 2) can shape news coverage and throw in red herrings, and with most of 1) too gullible to know what actually hit them, the cycle continues.

One doesn't have to vote GOP to be impressed by the staggering simplicity and efficiency of this cynical cycle.

and suddenly out of thin air jill stein shows up every four years

[bcm119]

Trump didn't win because he's from the right. He won because he's good at demagoguery. Both Clintons and Obama knew how to appeal to mid-America on some issues. And yes, that's my view. I don't think the Democrats can win with a true progressive.

I'd have agreed with you a year ago. But the political climate may be ripening for a coalition built on progressive, kitchen table issues like strong labor, lower taxes for the middle class, and fixing SS and medicaid instead of cutting it. Raising the SS tax limit should be a no-brainer issue for the Dems. For decades now the working class has become more resentful of the middle class, who've become more resentful of the upper middle class, and social media-fueled consumerism has only made it worse lately. But now that the billionaires are showing their true colors, I'm hopeful all the bickering of the other 99% may subside as it dawns on us that we're all getting equally screwed. The billionaire-worshipping tech-right is moving fast and breaking things in politics now, which is an opportunity. The trick will be for the progressives to retreat from the cultural issues that blew up in their faces. Easier said than done for a lot of them.