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Thread: New frame with paint overspray

  1. #21
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    Not to sound unreasonable, but the buyer shouldn't have to be the nanny, effectively by ordering a complete build, if what s/he wants is just the frame set.
    To your point… and the builder should not accept the commission if it is outside the established business practice. Communication of expectations is key to success

  2. #22
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Rody View Post
    To your point… and the builder should not accept the commission if it is outside the established business practice. Communication of expectations is key to success
    Agreed. Whatever type of commission is accepted, it should be fulfilled in good form.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

  3. #23
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Rody View Post
    I went through growing pains as a builder, performing tasks with less than adequate tools and getting barely satisfactory results. It only took a few negative customer experiences, like above, before I fully understood that I needed to make financial investments in the correct tooling and procedures to ensure that my products reflected the level of professionalism that is expected. It was embarrassing and I did not want to experience that again.


    Rody
    Rody

    Thanks for this, it resonates.
    Mark Kelly

  4. #24
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    Not to sound unreasonable, but the buyer shouldn't have to be the nanny, effectively by ordering a complete build, if what s/he wants is just the frame set.
    This can be easily done = I ask for the cranks in hand, I have dummy wheels in common sizes and if it's not common, well, I want those in hand as well, I check the tolerances with a seat post and headset(s) that never have been installed as "dummies" and so forth.

    It requires communication, but that how you get what you want for both parties

    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    This can be easily done = I ask for the cranks in hand, I have dummy wheels in common sizes and if it's not common, well, I want those in hand as well, I check the tolerances with a seat post and headset(s) that never have been installed as "dummies" and so forth.

    It requires communication, but that how you get what you want for both parties

    - Garro.
    Given some specific requirements I had, the crankset was one of the things they really wanted at hand to get things right, like the chainstay angle, tyre / mudguard clearance, heel clearance, front derailleur height and whether to have a braze-on or collar vis-a-vis the thickness of the 953 tubing at given points and the force of Di2 FD, etc.

    So yes, a bit of comms goes a long way. Bespoke is usually a collaborative process, and comms is the essential foundation for that process. Without it, things can go south or sideways -- most likely both -- very quickly.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by shand View Post
    Charles Ralph (Alves)?
    Yes

  7. #27
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    I took the frame to a LBS where I know the head mechanic.
    They chased the BB threads and faced it. Now the BB is installed finally.
    I mentioned to them the problem about the seat post being too tight. They said the seat tube needs to be reamed but they don't have tool but referred to me a local frame builder.
    Spoke to him today on the phone and he said it does need to be reamed.
    I told him I was concerned about about running a reamer through very thin walled tubing and he said it is low stress area and will be ok.
    So I am taking it there this weekend to have it done.
    I am also fighting a problem with the brake mounting. When I ordered the frame we agreed on short reach brakes (39 - 49mm reach).
    When I mounted the brake on the fork I could not adjust the pads low enough and needed a few more mm. Then I measured the drop and it appears to be 52mm.
    I figured my only option was to get some mid reach brakes which I did. I mounted the mid reach brake on the fork and had to adjust the pads near the top.
    Then I mounted the rear brake and ran into some more problems. The reach on the rear measures 46mm and I cannot adjust the pads high enough on the mid reach brake.
    Also the brake pad holders were hitting the seat stays. I believe this is due to the brake bridge not being perpendicular to the stays, so now I will have to add a second washer to space them away.
    I paid $175 for the brakes and now I am returning them which is costing me $25.
    I am going to go with short reach brakes and on the front brake and either file the pad holder slot or use some pad pad holders that extend the pads down lower.

  8. #28
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Sir,

    Please stop.

    It's time to contact the builder and return the frame.

    Be respectful but firm, as this is their responsibility to correct.

    If not, every time you look at the bike you will remember every compromise and frustration experienced. Both you and the builder deserve a better outcome.

    Best wishes,

    Rody
    Rody Walter
    Groovy Cycleworks...Custom frames with a dash of Funk!
    Website - www.groovycycleworks.com
    Blog - www.groovycycleworks.blogspot.com
    Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Groov...s/227115749408

  9. #29
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Rody View Post
    Sir,

    Please stop.

    It's time to contact the builder and return the frame.

    Be respectful but firm, as this is their responsibility to correct.

    If not, every time you look at the bike you will remember every compromise and frustration experienced. Both you and the builder deserve a better outcome.

    Best wishes,

    Rody
    Rody,

    When you say return do you mean return it for a refund or to correct the problems?
    I have contacted them many times but they are very slow to respond.
    Since they are in another country it is not really practical to ship it back and forth unless they are willing to pay for the shipping costs.
    It is much easier to have the problems fixed locally by people I fully trust.
    They had their chance to get it right and they missed the mark by a lot IMO.
    I realize what I posted maybe TMI and I will not keep posting about it.
    I wanted to get a reality check as to if these kind of problems are to be expected or not.

    Thank you

  10. #30
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    1st of all I want to sympathize with your that what you thought would be your dream custom bike turned out to have disappointing problems. I think not only you but others can learn from your experience. I think your problems started with choosing a builder in the UK. They have (or at least did have) a different culture than American builders. When I was searching for a place to learn to build frames in the 70's, an average cost of a painted frame was somewhere between $100 and $150. The working class blokes that bought these frames could not afford more. That means these frames had to be built quickly to met that kind of price point. Paul Jacobs can let us know if the culture of building frames in the UK is more like the US market. We build for customers with much more income and as a result we can take much more time to get everything right. I wouldn't expect a frame purchased based on price to compare with one with the emphasis on quality (and a result much more expensive).

    My recommendation for any potential buyer is to buy local. Any problems are much more easily solved and the builder can get a much clearer picture of the kind of frame that will best serve the customers interests. For example in my conversation I can tell if the customer has a type A or B personality and adjust the design more toward performance or relaxed riding. I always start with a fitting on an adjustable fitting bike. I then convert the that seat/handlebar/pedal relationship into a frame design. My fixture (laser cut and etched in Ukraine) is designed so I can do that. There are advantages if the builder is also a painter too (which wasn't one of your problems).

  11. #31
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    [QUOTE=Deluz;1081469]
    When you say return do you mean return it for a refund or to correct the problems?
    /QUOTE]

    Refund…time to start with a clean slate

  12. #32
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
    I think your problems started with choosing a builder in the UK. They have (or at least did have) a different culture than American builders. When I was searching for a place to learn to build frames in the 70's, an average cost of a painted frame was somewhere between $100 and $150. The working class blokes that bought these frames could not afford more. That means these frames had to be built quickly to met that kind of price point. Paul Jacobs can let us know if the culture of building frames in the UK is more like the US market. We build for customers with much more income and as a result we can take much more time to get everything right. I wouldn't expect a frame purchased based on price to compare with one with the emphasis on quality (and a result much more expensive).
    I might frame this quote.
    Chikashi Miyamoto

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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    That is a total bummer. I would want my money back.

    That said, I had two bikes built by the same guy. The King headset failed on the first, and when the second arrived the headset was proud: not fully set into the head tube. Turned out he had not faced either head tube. No shit. And he taught bike building. When I told him of the problem his only concern was that I not tell anyone because it would adversely effect his business. He also sold me a set of disc wheels with the front not dished.

    He complained (!) but I got a new headset and returned the wheels. Mike Augspurger fixed the problem with the head tubes. He was incredulous.

    The best thing I can say about the two bikes is they fit and I have not broken them.

    Mark Nobilette has built three bikes for me that are textbook in every respect. They arrive ready to build. Nothing out of order. Perfect fit and finish. And they ride even better than they look. Flying down Highway 1 on a loaded touring bike that handled perfectly was a delight. You don't appreciate the fit until you are riding six hours a day for several months, and you find it's biomechanically perfect, like you are one machine.
    Jay Dwight

  14. #34
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    5E1E1CEC-56E8-4390-96EC-BF930BAC20E4.jpg

    Here's the tool in action, not cheap or small, just did this one
    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Chik View Post
    I might frame this quote.
    ...or quote this framed frame quote...
    rw saunders
    hey, how lucky can one man get.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    5E1E1CEC-56E8-4390-96EC-BF930BAC20E4.jpg

    Here's the tool in action, not cheap or small, just did this one
    - Garro.
    That looks scary. I hope it can be done with the BB installed otherwise I will have to remove it.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Fattic View Post
    1st of all I want to sympathize with your that what you thought would be your dream custom bike turned out to have disappointing problems. I think not only you but others can learn from your experience. I think your problems started with choosing a builder in the UK. They have (or at least did have) a different culture than American builders. When I was searching for a place to learn to build frames in the 70's, an average cost of a painted frame was somewhere between $100 and $150. The working class blokes that bought these frames could not afford more. That means these frames had to be built quickly to met that kind of price point. Paul Jacobs can let us know if the culture of building frames in the UK is more like the US market. We build for customers with much more income and as a result we can take much more time to get everything right. I wouldn't expect a frame purchased based on price to compare with one with the emphasis on quality (and a result much more expensive).

    My recommendation for any potential buyer is to buy local. Any problems are much more easily solved and the builder can get a much clearer picture of the kind of frame that will best serve the customers interests. For example in my conversation I can tell if the customer has a type A or B personality and adjust the design more toward performance or relaxed riding. I always start with a fitting on an adjustable fitting bike. I then convert the that seat/handlebar/pedal relationship into a frame design. My fixture (laser cut and etched in Ukraine) is designed so I can do that. There are advantages if the builder is also a painter too (which wasn't one of your problems).
    Doug, I am flattered that you mentioned me but I don't think I know enough to generalise about UK framebuilding. Before I started building frames myself, I had three frames built for me. In each case this involved a visit to the builder and time, hours rather than minutes, spent talking the project through. In one instance the framebuilder sold me the groupset, at a discount, for me to build into the frame. The frame was constructed with those parts in mind. The last frame I had made was by Dave Yates, about ten years ago. When I visited him for frame fitting/design discussion, he asked me to bring all the components which I intended to use, so that he could check them for compatibility before he started building the frame.

    The only problem I had was described above in post #14 , which was speedily remedied by the builder.

    I agree with your last paragraph. Direct interaction between customer and builder helps to make the result rewarding for both parties.

  18. #38
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Deluz View Post
    That looks scary. I hope it can be done with the BB installed
    It sure can !

    - Garro.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

  19. #39
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by steve garro View Post
    It sure can !

    - Garro.
    I had a small rag on a string with a washer at the other end. The rag and string was stuffed down the seat tube, beyond where the reamer would reach and usually above any bottle bosses. The frame was positioned horizontal so the string wouldn't hang out. The ST was reamed and cleaned then the bike was tipped upside down. String with now wet/oily rag was removed further wiping the ST ID clean. Andy
    Andy Stewart
    10%

  20. #40
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    Default Re: New frame with paint overspray

    Quote Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
    I had a small rag on a string with a washer at the other end. The rag and string was stuffed down the seat tube, beyond where the reamer would reach and usually above any bottle bosses. The frame was positioned horizontal so the string wouldn't hang out. The ST was reamed and cleaned then the bike was tipped upside down. String with now wet/oily rag was removed further wiping the ST ID clean. Andy

    Reamer has a positive stop machined on it, can't lose it !

    - Garro.
    Last edited by steve garro; 08-19-2022 at 08:24 PM.
    Steve Garro, Coconino Cycles.
    Frames & Bicycles built to measure and Custom wheels
    Hecho en Flagstaff, Arizona desde 2003
    www.coconinocycles.com
    www.coconinocycles.blogspot.com

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