Are internships with framebuilders still a thing?

[Vincentsavary]

I feel like often I read about an old-school framebuilder they say they started their framebuilding education by just reaching out to some framebuilder like "Hey can I sweep the floor of your shop and watch you work so that I can learn about framebuilding?", which sounds like it was common in the 70-80's. Is it still something that actually happens and is it a viable way to learn about framebuilding? I intend to reaching out to certain framebuilders regardless of the answers I get from this thread (what do I have to loose, right?) and I also do intend on taking an actual framebuilding class next fall (most likely with Dave Bohm), but I'm still curious about what the mentors have to say about it. Is it a practice that got lost over time, or am I just not aware of it (hey I am after all a millenial who grew up with the Internet)? I must say that the "framebuilding legacy" here in Montreal isnt as big as it appears to be in some part of the US.

I remember listening to a podcast with the guy from Mone Bikes where he mentionned doing an internship with James from Blacksheep, but it honestly was the first time in recent years that I heard about it, even sorting through this forum and listening to the few framebuilding podcasts out there.

I DID do a short internship with a local titanium bike frame manufacturer that was part of my welding school program (I myself specifically chose that manufacturer), but I kinda feel like school gives it a different context or incentive for that company, that might not be there if you just hit them up randomly? I don't know if that makes sense, I tend to be over-apologetic and afraid of bothering people.

I guess my question to today's framebuilders and mentors of this great forum is, how would you actually feel about having an intern with limited and/or non-professional experience with welding/brazing and framebuilding? Would showing an exceptional enthusiasm and motivation be enough for you to accept an intern, or is actual knowledge and experience required?

I deeply appreciate all the insights I get from this forum, having a direct connection to experienced framebuilders is invaluable, hence why I feel comfortable asking such a vague/imprecise/personal/borderline-philosophical question.

Cheers!

[Rich Beaudoin]

I’m no pro, but most workshops I’ve been in (and I know quite a few builders) are pretty small one-man operations and it’s hard not to be in the way of someone else. In fall I helped a local neighbor boy build a bike as his 8th grade project. It took easily twice as long to complete it as it would have working alone.
It seems like the best scenario would be in a place with a handful of employees so you could learn different skills/perspectives from whoever is available

[e-RICHIE]

I’m not aware of anyone who did an internship or had a position as an apprentice (in the literal sense) but before - way before - Y2K, framebuilding was a bonafide trade that wasn’t yet affected by outside forces. That’s essentially what has changed. Over time, the quality, efficiency, and even the marketing machinery of industrial made bicycles has caught up and even surpassed what most contemporary makers (sic) can do at the bench. That fact alone contributed to the trade’s demise. It still exists, but differently.

I think one needs to define what framebuilding is to his own self, as a profession as well as a creative pursuit, and find role models to tap into in order to find some open windows.

Your best bet is to find a job on a production line, accept that you’ll need to learn every single task before moving over to the next work station, and leave ?? years later with some basic skills.

[Eric Estlund]

I had an entry level position at a frame building company and worked my way into competency. I don't know if anyone has ever done an old guild style apprenticeship. Frame building has always been a hand labor intensive product manufacture, and it's been scaled to some level of production since the beginning. Lots of folks were hired as floor sweepers and moved through various positions, but I'd call that getting a job and progressing within a company.

[Vincentsavary]

Thanks everybody for your answers. I guess it's what I suspected.

For sure working on a production line would be the way, I guess it just asks a lot of commitement since it would probably mean relocating to the US for me. All across Canada I am aware of only 4 bike frame manufacturers and a handful of custom framebuilders. Opportunities are very scarce up here!

[e-RICHIE]

Thanks everybody for your answers. I guess it's what I suspected.

For sure working on a production line would be the way, I guess it just asks a lot of commitement since it would probably mean relocating to the US for me. All across Canada I am aware of only 4 bike frame manufacturers and a handful of custom framebuilders. Opportunities are very scarce up here!

The number of opportunities mirrors the trade (what's left of it).
Make the commitment.
See it done.

[Eric Estlund]

For sure working on a production line would be the way, I guess it just asks a lot of commitment since it would probably mean relocating to the US for me.

I hear this often- "I wish that I could do it here in (insert location)". But if you want to go to Harvard, you have to move to Massachusetts. If you want to climb the Eiger, you have to go to go to Switzerland. I moved cross country to go build bikes. Other folks had to go to the UK or Italy back in the day. It's never been about popping into your local frame maker and feeding their wood stove while Pappa Brazer passed on the trade. If one wants to work for CoMotion, Bike Friday, Moots, IndyFab, etc one has to go to them.

[Doug Fattic]

I hear this often- "I wish that I could do it here in (insert location)". But if you want to go to Harvard, you have to move to Massachusetts. If you want to climb the Eiger, you have to go to go to Switzerland. I moved cross country to go build bikes. Other folks had to go to the UK or Italy back in the day. It's never been about popping into your local frame maker and feeding their wood stove while Pappa Brazer passed on the trade. If one wants to work for CoMotion, Bike Friday, Moots, IndyFab, etc one has to go to them.

One of my most common questions I get when people when people ask me about my framebuilding classes is where I am located and how long they last. For many those are 2 of the most influencing factors that determines their choice. That is okay if you are just wanting to casually explore doing building as a hobby but it makes no sense to me if you want to be really good. I went and stayed in England for a few months after doing lots of research and looking for the best place for me that would have me. That research really paid off. I got a great start.

My take is that if a potential builder really want to be good, he is going to do the research to find the very best place to learn and make it happen. Not every good craftsman is a good teacher and not every good teacher is a good craftsman.

Because I know that a potential builder needs more than a class or two or three, I set up a frame shop in Ukraine where my students could go for several months and make robust transportation frames. These were turned into bicycles for pastors. That allowed them to come back with serious skills. It takes practice after learning the principles. Of course where our little shop was located on a college campus (where students could stay and eat in the cafeteria is in a horrible location now. Huge fighting has taken place in the surrounding area. We can thank Putin for ruining one of America's best places to get framebuilding experience.

[hampco]

You might consider schools or jobs where you could learn adjacent or similar skills: welding, brazing/soldering, blacksmithing, metal fabrication, machining - all of these are skills that helped me get started and can be quite useful even if you don't end up building bicycle frames.

Good luck!