Ukraine

[classtimesailer]

There's more nuance to it than that. Folks can listen and make up their own minds, or not.

Chomsky is famous for nuance and lately the result is a compendium of sound judgements that the status quo is what we should expect and barring a miracle, we must accept: "Facts on the ground" and all that.

[TMB]

Wouldn't the rest of NATO be obligated to defend Latvia?

Let’s hope WW 3 doesn’t start.

I think it safe to say that WW 3 started quite some ago.

[bigbill]

The US is stepping up with support. As the countryside dries out from spring rains and melting snow, artillery is your friend. Big 155mm shells in mud just splatter mud everywhere.

http://cdrsalamander.blogspot.com/20...acy-again.html

[fastupslowdown]

I find it difficult to believe anyone can seriously think the story of Russian atrocities is fabricated. Russia's own statements help validate the claims and the playbook is right out of Syria. The footage is quite similar.

I saw an interesting article earlier. Ukraine has armed its citizens with smart phones and built a reporting ap. Ukranians snap pictures of Russian positions and notify the military. This has made the Russian military paranoid and they've responded by searching for anyone and e with a smart phone or tablet and execute them when they find one. Additionally Russia apparently thinks going after the general population pressures the military. It's quite possible Ukraine has hidden weapons and military equipment nearby but that's what Russia signed up for when deciding to attack Ukraine over displeasure with its tilt west. -Mike G

[jclay]

Intro from an article by former British diplomat Alastair Crooke

"Russia-China axis possess food, energy, technology and most of the world’s key resources. History teaches that these elements make the winners in wars

As it dawns on the West that whereas sanctions are deemed capable of bringing countries to their knees, the reality is that such capitulation never has occurred (i.e. Cuba; North Korea; Iran). And, in the case of Russia, it is possible to say that just ain’t going to happen.

Team Biden still has not fully grasped the reasons why. One point is that they picked precisely the wrong economy to try to collapse via sanctions (Russia has minimal foreign supply lines and oodles of valuable commodities). Biden’s staffers too, have never comprehended the full ramifications of Putin’s monetary jujitsu linking the rouble to gold, and the rouble to energy."

Article continues here:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/ne...-with-ukraine/

[bigbill]

Intro from an article by former British diplomat Alastair Crooke

"Russia-China axis possess food, energy, technology and most of the world’s key resources. History teaches that these elements make the winners in wars

As it dawns on the West that whereas sanctions are deemed capable of bringing countries to their knees, the reality is that such capitulation never has occurred (i.e. Cuba; North Korea; Iran). And, in the case of Russia, it is possible to say that just ain’t going to happen.

Team Biden still has not fully grasped the reasons why. One point is that they picked precisely the wrong economy to try to collapse via sanctions (Russia has minimal foreign supply lines and oodles of valuable commodities). Biden’s staffers too, have never comprehended the full ramifications of Putin’s monetary jujitsu linking the rouble to gold, and the rouble to energy."

Article continues here:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/ne...-with-ukraine/

US foreign policy has been amateurish at best for the past six years. I hope at some point that someone with a grasp of history and economics will step up. James Baker is 91, he may be the last of great foreign policy experts even if some of his actions were a little shady.

[zachateseverything]

The Strategic Culture Foundation (SCF) is a Russian think tank that primarily publishes an online current affairs magazine of the same name. It is regarded as an arm of Russian state interests by the United States government.[1]

According to a 2020 United States Department of State report, the Strategic Culture Foundation is directed by Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service, and is closely affiliated with Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.[1]

It has been characterized as a conservative, pro-Russian propaganda website by U.S. media.[2][3]

Strategic Culture Foundation has a pattern of sharing articles with other Russia-controlled outlets such as Global Research, New Eastern Outlook, and SouthFront.[4]

"The Washington Post reported in September 2020 that Facebook had banned a Russian disinformation network operated by the Strategic Culture Foundation—a network that “helped spread conspiracy theories aimed at English-speaking audiences, including by fueling false rumors that the coronavirus was produced as a bioweapon and that a potential vaccine would include tracking technology.”[5] The Post's report stated that the Strategic Culture Foundation “also spread false information that Bill Gates, the tech executive and philanthropist, was leading efforts to create a vaccine with surveillance capabilities.” The Post's report called the Strategic Culture Foundation “a phony think tank”.

In April 2021, the United States Department of the Treasury imposed sanctions on the Strategic Culture Foundation because of their efforts to influence US elections.[6][7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strate...ure_Foundation

[72gmc]

Good points, zac. And:

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/upl...m_08-04-20.pdf

SCF introduced on page 12, details begin on page 14.

[vertical_doug]

Intro from an article by former British diplomat Alastair Crooke

"Russia-China axis possess food, energy, technology and most of the world’s key resources. History teaches that these elements make the winners in wars

As it dawns on the West that whereas sanctions are deemed capable of bringing countries to their knees, the reality is that such capitulation never has occurred (i.e. Cuba; North Korea; Iran). And, in the case of Russia, it is possible to say that just ain’t going to happen.

Team Biden still has not fully grasped the reasons why. One point is that they picked precisely the wrong economy to try to collapse via sanctions (Russia has minimal foreign supply lines and oodles of valuable commodities). Biden’s staffers too, have never comprehended the full ramifications of Putin’s monetary jujitsu linking the rouble to gold, and the rouble to energy."

Article continues here:

https://www.strategic-culture.org/ne...-with-ukraine/

Russia-China Axis? It's not a Russia China axis yet. China is watching this to see how to play Taiwan.
Russia is GDP of Texas. In a fight of US vs. Texas, US wins.

The reason Russia is jawboning so hard about nuclear war, etc etc, is in a conventional war with the west, Russia will lose. They are hoping they can bluff their way to victory.
Bluffing doesn't work in the long term as someone always calls the bluff.

I'd also say with conducting a Satan 2 test launch, the Russians are really afraid of something in the US arsenal. I do not know if it is the THAAD system. or something else.

It looks to me all the Russians have going for them is brutality.

[Peter Polack]

Intro from an article by former British diplomat Alastair Crooke

"Russia-China axis possess food, energy, technology and most of the world’s key resources. History teaches that these elements make the winners in wars

As it dawns on the West that whereas sanctions are deemed capable of bringing countries to their knees, the reality is that such capitulation never has occurred (i.e. Cuba; North Korea; Iran). And, in the case of Russia, it is possible to say that just ain’t going to happen.

Team Biden still has not fully grasped the reasons why. One point is that they picked precisely the wrong economy to try to collapse via sanctions (Russia has minimal foreign supply lines and oodles of valuable commodities). Biden’s staffers too, have never comprehended the full ramifications of Putin’s monetary jujitsu linking the rouble to gold, and the rouble to energy."

True.

Let's call it a type of asymmetric warfare, sanctions vs. military action. Sanctions are not going to defeat, let alone persuade Putin to leave Ukraine, and those sanctions aren't going to inspire the populace to rise up and ask for a withdrawl as the Russian police state will crush dissent and protest. Unfortunately, only a military defeat will do so. I don't think Ukraine can hold out for ten years, like Afghanistan.

[jclay]

The Strategic Culture Foundation (SCF) is a Russian think tank that primarily publishes an online current affairs magazine of the same name. It is regarded as an arm of Russian state interests by the United States government.[1]

According to a 2020 United States Department of State report, the Strategic Culture Foundation is directed by Russia's Foreign Intelligence Service, and is closely affiliated with Russia's Ministry of Foreign Affairs.[1]

It has been characterized as a conservative, pro-Russian propaganda website by U.S. media.[2][3]

Strategic Culture Foundation has a pattern of sharing articles with other Russia-controlled outlets such as Global Research, New Eastern Outlook, and SouthFront.[4]

"The Washington Post reported in September 2020 that Facebook had banned a Russian disinformation network operated by the Strategic Culture Foundation—a network that “helped spread conspiracy theories aimed at English-speaking audiences, including by fueling false rumors that the coronavirus was produced as a bioweapon and that a potential vaccine would include tracking technology.”[5] The Post's report stated that the Strategic Culture Foundation “also spread false information that Bill Gates, the tech executive and philanthropist, was leading efforts to create a vaccine with surveillance capabilities.” The Post's report called the Strategic Culture Foundation “a phony think tank”.

In April 2021, the United States Department of the Treasury imposed sanctions on the Strategic Culture Foundation because of their efforts to influence US elections.[6][7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strate...ure_Foundation

The state dept that sent Victoria Nuland to Ukraine in 2014 to help overthrow the govt ‘cause it wasn’t leaning adequately West; which seems to have been the spark that finally caused the civil....let's just say "discord", which coupled with Putin's general displeasure at the situation led to this conflagration; the state dept from the country that won’t consider relinquishing a little piece of dirt on Cuba to which we have zero legitimate claim and even less need? From the country that invaded Iraq over weapons of mass disappearance; that spent 20 years bleeding blood and $$ in Afghanistan for....exactly what good outcome? Bueller.....Bueller? One could make a very long list.

Sorry, I’m more interested in the messages than the messenger.

When have our sanctions really worked out well, for us and the populations of the target countries, over any meaningful period of time? I find it difficult to counter the author’s second para. This isn’t the only article positing that our economic sanctions aren’t going to cause Putin to go, “oh, gee, my bad, you win….hey y’all military folks in Ukraine, come on home and play nice on the way.” Ya think US escalation and arms will make that happen?? I don’t. And if it did, you OK with the price Ukraine has already paid?

You think that Crimea and land routes to it are going back to Ukraine?

Russia-China axis para: I think he’s talking about the current tussle for geo-political-economic primacy, not full on military conflict in which the entire globe loses. Assuming that to be correct….China and Russia have a bunch of resources and somebody tell me upon what practical, observable basis China isn’t going to surpass the US economically, industrially and militarily. Are we not watching it happen (on TV sets made in China or Asia)? And we're gonna get Russia to morph into something more pleasing to us by our current actions??

Ya think the dems will maintain the House and Senate? Hope so but I wouldn’t place a bet on it.

I’m totally with Mearsheimer. We fucked up, big time; again; though it’s been grand for the MIC and saber rattlers. I’m outta inclination to continue so to summarize: We got propaganda, “they” got propaganda. And I’m having a hard time finding meaningful fault with the linked article’s core points and inferences which to me are:

The period when a negotiated peace was possible has passed.
Russia will destroy Ukraine to keep Crimea; sanctions and arms won’t change that.
Crimea ain’t going back to Ukraine.
The days when the rest of the world had to capitulate to the US, for whatever reason, are drawing to a close.

Now, if the US does a big time, very loud 180 on NATO, something for which I glimpsed a headline last night, maybe the carnage could be ended but Crimea ain’t leaving Russia and our miscalculation (I hope that’s what it was) was enormously destructive; big surprise, that.

[vertical_doug]

The state dept that sent Victoria Nuland to Ukraine in 2014 to help overthrow the govt ‘cause it wasn’t leaning adequately West; which seems to have been the spark that finally caused the civil....let's just say "discord", which coupled with Putin's general displeasure at the situation led to this conflagration; .

You are making a huge assumption on Victoria Nuland's role here in Ukraine. Oliver Stone's Ukraine documentary was total bullhit and he was nothing more than a useful idiot for putin.

Fundamentally, you are saying Ukraine does not have a right to be a free or independent country. It sounds like you and Rand Paul read the same pieces since this was largely his argument v. Blinken in the Senate hearing and he came off looking like an idiot.

[zachateseverything]

The state dept that sent Victoria Nuland to Ukraine in 2014 to help overthrow the govt ‘cause it wasn’t leaning adequately West; which seems to have been the spark that finally caused the civil....let's just say "discord", which coupled with Putin's general displeasure at the situation led to this conflagration; the state dept from the country that won’t consider relinquishing a little piece of dirt on Cuba to which we have zero legitimate claim and even less need? From the country that invaded Iraq over weapons of mass disappearance; that spent 20 years bleeding blood and $$ in Afghanistan for....exactly what good outcome? Bueller.....Bueller? One could make a very long list.

Sorry, I’m more interested in the messages than the messenger.

When have our sanctions really worked out well, for us and the populations of the target countries, over any meaningful period of time? I find it difficult to counter the author’s second para. This isn’t the only article positing that our economic sanctions aren’t going to cause Putin to go, “oh, gee, my bad, you win….hey y’all military folks in Ukraine, come on home and play nice on the way.” Ya think US escalation and arms will make that happen?? I don’t. And if it did, you OK with the price Ukraine has already paid?

You think that Crimea and land routes to it are going back to Ukraine?

Russia-China axis para: I think he’s talking about the current tussle for geo-political-economic primacy, not full on military conflict in which the entire globe loses. Assuming that to be correct….China and Russia have a bunch of resources and somebody tell me upon what practical, observable basis China isn’t going to surpass the US economically, industrially and militarily. Are we not watching it happen (on TV sets made in China or Asia)? And we're gonna get Russia to morph into something more pleasing to us by our current actions??

Ya think the dems will maintain the House and Senate? Hope so but I wouldn’t place a bet on it.

I’m totally with Mearsheimer. We fucked up, big time; again; though it’s been grand for the MIC and saber rattlers. I’m outta inclination to continue so to summarize: We got propaganda, “they” got propaganda. And I’m having a hard time finding meaningful fault with the linked article’s core points and inferences which to me are:

The period when a negotiated peace was possible has passed.
Russia will destroy Ukraine to keep Crimea; sanctions and arms won’t change that.
Crimea ain’t going back to Ukraine.
The days when the rest of the world had to capitulate to the US, for whatever reason, are drawing to a close.

Now, if the US does a big time, very loud 180 on NATO, something for which I glimpsed a headline last night, maybe the carnage could be ended but Crimea ain’t leaving Russia and our miscalculation (I hope that’s what it was) was enormously destructive; big surprise, that.

Y'all linked a literal Russian propaganda piece and are defending it strictly because it confirms your bias that American imperialism is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world.

Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin wants that territory and doesn't respect the sovereignty of the Ukraine as a nation. It had little to do with NATO expansion. Similar moves have played out in other non-NATO nations.

[jclay]

You are making a huge assumption on Victoria Nuland's role here in Ukraine. Oliver Stone's Ukraine documentary was total bullhit and he was nothing more than a useful idiot for putin.

Fundamentally, you are saying Ukraine does not have a right to be a free or independent country. It sounds like you and Rand Paul read the same pieces since this was largely his argument v. Blinken in the Senate hearing and he came off looking like an idiot.

You don’t know what my assumption is; I didn’t see Roger Stone’s thing; and you are wrong, respectively.

[jclay]

Y'all linked a literal Russian propaganda piece and are defending it strictly because it confirms your bias that American imperialism is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world.

Russia invaded Ukraine because Putin wants that territory and doesn't respect the sovereignty of the Ukraine as a nation. It had little to do with NATO expansion. Similar moves have played out in other non-NATO nations.

Your first paragraph is a strawman argument. Your second paragraph… May I borrow your crystal ball as to what Putin was thinking? For the time being Mearsheimer‘s analysis makes a lot more sense to me than yours.

[zachateseverything]

Your first paragraph is a strawman argument. Your second paragraph… May I borrow your crystal ball as to what Putin was thinking? For the time being Mearsheimer‘s analysis makes a lot more sense to me than yours.

pointing out your bias or the bias of the "article" you linked is not a strawman argument.

[jclay]

pointing out your bias or the bias of the "article" you linked is not a strawman argument.

You're being rather selective and kinda left out the punch line: "strictly because it confirms your bias that American imperialism is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world."

Really. I wrote that? Musta missed it,

Rather than pound the table you might consider addressing, head on, the thesis of each para I wrote; better than that, listen to Mearsheimer and tell us where/how/upon what basis he is wrong.

[zachateseverything]

You're being rather selective and kinda left out the punch line: "strictly because it confirms your bias that American imperialism is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world."

Really. I wrote that? Musta missed it,

Rather than pound the table you might consider addressing, head on, the thesis of each para I wrote; better than that, listen to Mearsheimer and tell us where/how/upon what basis he is wrong.

that's been your entire thesis in this thread

[j44ke]

You're being rather selective and kinda left out the punch line: "strictly because it confirms your bias that American imperialism is responsible for every bad thing that happens in the world."

Really. I wrote that? Musta missed it,

Rather than pound the table you might consider addressing, head on, the thesis of each para I wrote; better than that, listen to Mearsheimer and tell us where/how/upon what basis he is wrong.

Let's cut out the snark eh?

[vertical_doug]

You don’t know what my assumption is; I didn’t see Roger Stone’s thing; and you are wrong, respectively.

'The state dept that sent Victoria Nuland to Ukraine in 2014 to help overthrow the govt ‘cause it wasn’t leaning adequately West; which seems to have been the spark that finally caused the civil....let's just say "discord"'

This seems like a big assumption to me.

So the question remains' "Does Ukraine have the right to be free and independent or are they not allowed to upset Putin?"

If they are allowed to be free and independent, then Putin is in the wrong.