Ukraine

[classtimesailer]

I'm suggesting that the circumstances surrounding the "atrocities" are fabricated and the fabrication is immediately reported as fact when it supports the Russia Bad narrative sponsored by the western oligarchs. No dancing on my part. CSI Syria on Tuesday night, CSI Kiev on Thursdays. CSI Ethiopia in development--we are just waiting for a good "atrocity" or two.

[classtimesailer]

1) Jeff, if you have something to say, why not have to guts to just come out and say it? Please quit this innuendo and dancing around your point.

2) The primary thing Syria and Ukraine have in common, other than the fact that they are horrible conflicts, is that Russia and Putin have been deeply involved in both.

I was responding to todd's desire for someone to "come out and say it". How do you want me to say it! The Americans are the bad guys. They lie. They cheat. They steal. Your point #2 is ridiculous.

Guts? mabouya from USA?

[vertical_doug]

I'm suggesting that the circumstances surrounding the "atrocities" are fabricated and the fabrication is immediately reported as fact when it supports the Russia Bad narrative sponsored by the western oligarchs. No dancing on my part. CSI Syria on Tuesday night, CSI Kiev on Thursdays. CSI Ethiopia in development--we are just waiting for a good "atrocity" or two.

You are concluding that because some atrocities may be fabricated, all atrocities are fabricated which is a logical fallacy. Certainly, some reports are exaggerated, but others after scrutiny and more evidence come to light are verified. At the simplest, attacking a civilian target with heavy artillery or missiles which is not a military target is a war crime. That's why the International Press always reports when Israel retaliates and hits a hospital or school in Gaza after being attack. At least Israel, admits they hit it, and usually claim it was used as a human shield.

So when you see a bombed hospital in Ukraine, did the Ukrainians do it?

I am also under no illusion that Ukrainian forces are not retaliating in kind. This is bound to happen as both sides use irregular troops in the war.
I am surprised some of the Russian atrocities are not being tied back to the Chechnyans. One of my military contacts in Israel said the biggest problem with the Chechnyans is they have no discipline and just shoot everything.

You can claim America is not innocent which is true, but that is not a justification for what Russia is doing.

[j44ke]

I was responding to todd's desire for someone to "come out and say it". How do you want me to say it! The Americans are the bad guys. They lie. They cheat. They steal. Your point #2 is ridiculous.

Guts? mabouya from USA?

So what part of the Russian invasion of Ukraine is real from your perspective?

[Marvinlungwitz]

Those body bags at the train station "missile strike" were so fake.

Let's hope Alex Jones gets involved in exposing this charade.

[Doug Fattic]

The town of Bucha is heavy in the news cycle lately because the Ukrainians were able to push out the invading Russians so that journalists could come behind and document the damage. It is very high odds that this is the very town I've spent over a half year of my life doing charity bicycle work. I've pedaled or walked the majority of their streets. The area doesn't have much significance except it is a bedroom community for those that work in Kyiv but want to be close to the countryside. It is a pleasant undistinguished place. So - surprise - it became the center of news stories.

There are 2 reasons this town is in the news. One is that it is very near the Antonov airport the Russians wanted to use as a staging area for their attack into Kyiv. In other words a place to fly in resupplies to their troops. And 2nd to drive to Kyiv with their tanks and armored vehicles they have to drive across the Irpin River. There are only 2 bridges across that river to get to Kyiv. Those bridges were destroyed making crossing with any kind of motorized vehicle impossible. I saw constantly in the news those bridges with people walking over wooden planks to get to the other side. This is one of the primary reasons the miles long Russian convoy got stopped there. With now nothing to do the Russian army turned their attention to residents of Bucha and Irpin (they are sister cities).

I can't locate where most pictures are taken in Bucha. However occasionally they take a pic looking down a street and I can recognize landmarks. This is an aside to the points I want to make in this post but one time i'm cycling back to campus from town. On one of the back streets I come to a stop sign just like ours in the States. It was octagonal red with a white border that in the center had one word in Roman letters "STOP". At 1st I thought nothing of it and then I go "oh Huh"? Ukrainians write in Cyrillic not Roman letters. Okay back to my story.

I wanted to give the testimony of the guy I had worked with for 22 years. He has been a pastor for 42 years. He lives near the edge of Bucha in Vorzel. After hiding in his root cellar in the center of his yard for 2 weeks, he was able to make his escape by walking through Bucha and Irpin and across that bridge to get to Kyiv where he could catch a train west. He described the situation in the Bucha area as Slavs shooting Slavs. He was not physically hurt but his spirit is damaged and he doesn't know now if his house is destroyed or not. His testimony to me is authoritative about that very area. I will not ask uncivilized questions of the atrocities he saw as he fled. What he wrote to me about his experiences and observations is more than enough information to know the Russians have crossed the red line. Their army is guilty of evil as soon as they invaded.

I don't think it takes any stretch of imagination to believe that the Russians would put their hardened troops at the tip of the spear to attack Kyiv. These are the guys experienced in warfare that know to break their enemies by messing with civilians who may want to shoot back. It just makes sense that their behavior includes atrocities.

[classtimesailer]

So what part of the Russian invasion of Ukraine is real from your perspective?

The part where the the anti-Russian Ukrainian government planned to join the U.S. led project to deter the imminent Asian invasion by installing weapons aimed at Russia which was just asking for trouble and Ukraine got trouble. It's all real.

There was a linked article somewhere above that I responded to. The article reminded me of the many atrocities promoted over the years to justify the involvement of American war machinery. I'm not patriotic which allows me to be more critical of the actors and their motivations. Patriots of course need to believe that I am misinformed.

[gregl]

The part where the the anti-Russian Ukrainian government planned to join the U.S. led project to deter the imminent Asian invasion by installing weapons aimed at Russia which was just asking for trouble and Ukraine got trouble. It's all real.

I'm genuinely not understanding this statement. Which "imminent Asian invasion" are you referring to?

Greg

[bigbill]

I was responding to todd's desire for someone to "come out and say it". How do you want me to say it! The Americans are the bad guys. They lie. They cheat. They steal. Your point #2 is ridiculous.

Guts? mabouya from USA?

What is ridiculous about #2 ? Russia is in Syria because they offer a warm water port for the Russian navy. The Russians can't deploy their navy from home ports in the winter months so they either have to keep them at sea or find a warm water port, in Syria. Russians want Ukraine for their natural gas, routes for pipelines, and their ports on the Black Sea to ship LNG worldwide.

[classtimesailer]

I'm genuinely not understanding this statement. Which "imminent Asian invasion" are you referring to?

Greg

I thought the Russians were coming and that is why we needed missile batteries along europe's eastern flank and now with Russia's unprovoked invasion of THE Ukraine, NATO is more important than ever.

[Scott G.]

I thought the Russians were coming and that is why we needed missile batteries along europe's eastern flank and now with Russia's unprovoked invasion of THE Ukraine, NATO is more important than ever.

You mean the Aegis Ashore , or some other missile system ?

https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/aegis-ashore/

[72gmc]

Yes, the West is also guilty of false narratives. But a bad narrative does not equal bad reporting. Journalists in Ukraine are seeing what they're seeing, and what they see can be verified by other observers. There's no reason to assume their reporting is false because it doesn't match a particular narrative.

[classtimesailer]

What is ridiculous about #2 ? Russia is in Syria because they offer a warm water port for the Russian navy. The Russians can't deploy their navy from home ports in the winter months so they either have to keep them at sea or find a warm water port, in Syria. Russians want Ukraine for their natural gas, routes for pipelines, and their ports on the Black Sea to ship LNG worldwide.

Russia's access to these ports was via bi-lateral agreements with each country. No big deal. Ukraine didn't have a problem with that until the U.S. did their democracy thing. And the Syria Russia relationship is tighter now than anytime since the 70s. Just in time for things to heat up. #2 is ridiculous because it implies all the trouble in those two places is due to Russia's interference. Some folks would agree with that because they think Russia should get with America's program and relent.

[classtimesailer]

You mean the Aegis Ashore , or some other missile system ?

https://missilethreat.csis.org/defsys/aegis-ashore/

Whatever. like 9mm or 45cal?

[theflashunc]

Russia's access to these ports was via bi-lateral agreements with each country. No big deal. Ukraine didn't have a problem with that until the U.S. did their democracy thing. And the Syria Russia relationship is tighter now than anytime since the 70s. Just in time for things to heat up. #2 is ridiculous because it implies all the trouble in those two places is due to Russia's interference. Some folks would agree with that because they think Russia should get with America's program and relent.

Tough to see how any of the last two months expands Russia's sphere of influence in the very region they cared most about -- their Western former satellite states.

Putin's done more in 2022 to strengthen both the EU, NATO and an American-led European order than really any Russian leader since the war.

Whatever you think of the facts on the ground, for the concerns of the immediate territory around the Russian border with Europe and it's European neighbors, this has been a total disaster.

The best hope and seemingly only climb down for Putin now is a partitioned state with an Eastern Ukraine as East Germany proxy state.

[Scott G.]

Whatever. like 9mm or 45cal?

Aegis Ashore uses a rocket powered telescope that runs into other missiles to destroy them,
the radar is in Turkey, pointed at Iran. There is no bomb on a SM3 or SM6 missile.

The missiles in North Dakota are the ones for destroying Moscow,
they have bombs on them. They've been there for 50+ years.

[j44ke]

The part where the the anti-Russian Ukrainian government planned to join the U.S. led project to deter the imminent Asian invasion by installing weapons aimed at Russia which was just asking for trouble and Ukraine got trouble. It's all real.

There was a linked article somewhere above that I responded to. The article reminded me of the many atrocities promoted over the years to justify the involvement of American war machinery. I'm not patriotic which allows me to be more critical of the actors and their motivations. Patriots of course need to believe that I am misinformed.

Well, not sure how you define patriotic or unpatriotic, but there is no correlation with being correct or incorrect with either position. As far as need, I don't think anyone here needs you to be misinformed.

Now, I need to go unclog the sink in my garage. Nice day out.

[classtimesailer]

So when the Ukraine president's instgram pics claim a Russian missile just killed 50 Russians civilians at that train station, we take him at his word?

[Mabouya]

So when the Ukraine president's instgram pics claim a Russian missile just killed 50 Russians civilians at that train station, we take him at his word?

Questions like this might be a bit more credible if you applied them equally to both sides of the "special military operation."

[vertical_doug]

The part where the the anti-Russian Ukrainian government planned to join the U.S. led project to deter the imminent Asian invasion by installing weapons aimed at Russia which was just asking for trouble and Ukraine got trouble. It's all real.

There was a linked article somewhere above that I responded to. The article reminded me of the many atrocities promoted over the years to justify the involvement of American war machinery. I'm not patriotic which allows me to be more critical of the actors and their motivations. Patriots of course need to believe that I am misinformed.

So now that Russia is warning Finland not to join Nato, as a free and democratic country, if the Fins decide to join Nato, do they deserve trouble?