Ukraine

[classtimesailer]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...war-in-ukraine

Disgusting.

Waiting for the babies and incubators story written by the White Ukrainian Helmets. Lots of stories being told by lots of people for lots of reasons.

[j44ke]

Waiting for the babies and incubators story written by the White Ukrainian Helmets. Lots of stories being told by lots of people for lots of reasons.

What are the White Ukrainian Helmets? Is that some sort of organization?

[jimcav]

i think that is like the white helmet medical brigade from the worst combat/atrocity areas in Syria

[j44ke]

i think that is like the white helmet medical brigade from the worst combat/atrocity areas in Syria

Aha, I see. Thanks. I didn't make the connection. I was thinking UN peacekeepers but they are blue helmets. And they are not in Ukraine.

[thollandpe]

What are the White Ukrainian Helmets? Is that some sort of organization?

What that is — somebody here going on record that they think the atrocities being reported in Bucha and elsewhere in Ukraine could be a hoax.

Dude, seriously?

[jimcav]

Whoa. Not sure what was meant but I thought it meant an organization similar to the white helmet volunteers in the Syrian conflict areas: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whit...ian_civil_war)

[thollandpe]

Whoa. Not sure what was meant but I thought it meant an organization similar to the white helmet volunteers in the Syrian conflict areas: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whit...ian_civil_war)

Not you, Jim. There was a story that a story was fabricated (and promoted by US mainstream media) about killing babies in incubators. Alluded to in the post before yours and Jorn's.

How Syria's White Helmets became victims of an online propaganda machine

[classtimesailer]

What that is — somebody here going on record that they think the atrocities being reported in Bucha and elsewhere in Ukraine could be a hoax.

Dude, seriously?

I think the atrocities being reported in _________ and elsewhere in Ukraine could be a hoax.

I suggest a web search of James Le Mesurier if you seek info on the white helmets and scroll beyond the guardian pieces and Wikipedia.

[BBB]

Oh what basis do you think the atrocities are a hoax?

[vertical_doug]

I think the atrocities being reported in _________ and elsewhere in Ukraine could be a hoax.

I suggest a web search of James Le Mesurier if you seek info on the white helmets and scroll beyond the guardian pieces and Wikipedia.

But if you think about it logically, you could say some of the atrocities being reported are false, but also to say all the atrocities being reported are false more likely is also false
The question then becomes, how many atrocities do you need? A theater bombed with children, people bound and executed, or how about just a Mayor being bound, arms broken and shot, or just civilian apartment blocks or hospitals being bombed? Where do you want to draw a line?

Then we are left with reports of forced deportations of Ukrainians into Russia. These are probably the most disturbing to me.

Finally, just with human nature, if American Soldiers can torture prisoners in Abu Ghraib which was a relatively controlled situation, why is it hard to believe Russian or Chechnyan soldiers are not torturing or executing civilians in a situation that is much less controlled?

[j44ke]

I haven't been able to find any indication that the White Helmets are operating in Ukraine. So I am not sure how are they related to the accusations of atrocities in Bucha and other places. It also appears that James Le Mesurier is dead, so he is not likely to have a role in Ukraine.

I understand the reference now, but I am not clear on how to apply the information.

[Doug Fattic]

I think the atrocities being reported in _________ and elsewhere in Ukraine could be a hoax.

Jeff, my contacts in Ukraine say otherwise. I've been going to the city of Bucha for over 20 years. Our little frame/bike shop is located on a college campus in that town. It is a kind of bedroom community to those that work in Kyiv. It is a sister city to Irpin to its south and Hostomel just to the north. I could easily walk to either town from campus. Hostomel is where that huge cargo plane was located. The Russians were using that airport as a staging area in their attempt to capture Kyiv.

Of my many contacts i've established in those 22 years of going to Ukraine, 2 of them are Yuriy and Anna. Yuriy is a now retired church administrator that got his engineering degree before he went back and got his Mdiv. His background in engineering and his house in nearby Vorzel is how he got stuck with me. Many times after church I would cycle to his house for lunch.

Anna was a student at the college who I met her freshman year. She was my translator all 4 years she was in college. She was a theology student - which was very unusual in Ukraine's male dominate society. She is now married to a pastor and they live with their 2 little girls in a city occupied by the Russians (one of the few).

When Russia invaded the eastern parts of Ukraine in 2014, refugees from the east flooded campus seeking food and clothing. Seeing the distress of these people with my own eyes had a huge impact on me. Surrounding our shop at the back of campus where trucks bringing supplies for the refugees. Anna helped with the relief efforts and she hit me up for money to buy treats for the refugee's kids.

When Russia invaded Ukraine in 2022 they targeted the airport at Hostomel. Yuriy had to hid in his root cellar in his yard for 2 weeks. I don't like to think of the details of how unpleasant that was. A 120mm shell hit his van destroying it. Eventually he and his wife could walk through Bucha and Irpin and across that broken bridge I saw in pictures all the time towards Kyiv where they could get a train to west Ukraine. He really feared for his life during that walk. I'm not about to ask him what he saw on that journey. When Anna was finally able to call him several weeks later she described him as being "shell shocked". In other words with PTSD. When he emailed me this week he did not know the condition of his house or of our shop. He did say he had stored our valuable equipment (including the Anvil fixtures and the ones I have laser cut out of stainless steel in Ukraine) in a storage shed nearby.

Yesterday Anna told me she and her little girls made a run for it out of the city that is controlled by Russians. Her husband has to stay behind. She said she went through 15 different check points (including some Russian ones) fortunately without any issues. They are now in Ukrainian controlled territory (but not a safe area). Just imagine what it must be like to leave your husband behind and flee your home in order to try and keep your young kids safe!

I don't know that every detail of every report that has come to us is 100% accurate. I think the big red line was crossed as soon as the Russian army moved into Ukrainian territory. I do know from personal accounts (more than just Yuriy and Anna) that everyone's lives in Ukraine have been horrible since Putin started this needless war. There is so much uncertainty that creates great stress for each individual.

Jeff your comment suggests something that you may not have intended. Creating doubt on the extreme reports can as a side result create doubt in all reports. Putin has destroyed the infrastructure I've set up to provide bicycles to pastors that need them. And at the same time destroyed the opportunity for those that want to practice their framebuilding skills so they can become proficient. And damaged the laser cutting company that makes my frame fixtures. From the experiences of me and my friends, I can fairly blame Putin for being really evil.

Here is a picture of Yuriy and Anna taken inside our frame/bike workshop in Bucha in 2016. Anna and Yuriy were working on the design of a stainless cross we wanted to braze on top of our fork crowns. The vise is C clamped to our alignment table. Yuriy is holding part of a fork crown in his hand. Since Anna and her family are not out of danger yet, I chose a picture that doesn't show the features of her face.
IMG_2883.jpg

[jimcav]

I haven't been able to find any indication that the White Helmets are operating in Ukraine. So I am not sure how are they related to the accusations of atrocities in Bucha and other places. It also appears that James Le Mesurier is dead, so he is not likely to have a role in Ukraine.

I understand the reference now, but I am not clear on how to apply the information.

there were some fake reports about staged events leveled at the white helmets in Syria: they have all been debunked by good reporting.

The New Yorker a few years ago had a very good article on the work the were doing. I might have read another long article in The Atlantic, but can't remember the magazine for certain.

Le Mesurier was a founder, and from what I remember ended up killing himself b/c there was some political-type investigating started because of missing funds, which led to an audit and freeze of funds. That freeze limited their work and endangered people who the white helmets were trying to help--this was why they think he jumped.

The investigation eventually showed he had in fact accounted for the 'missing' money (which was a relatively small amount, but it served the purpose for those who had reasons to attack him both personal and to hide the atrocities in Syria, ie lots of truly fake allegations made by pro-russian, pro-syrian gov't types). It has been a few years, but I do remember the audit uncovered some other stuff with others who might have had some questionable withdrawals/use of funds, but it was pretty small in comparison to the White Helmet parent organization budget, and didn't rise to the level of fraud or crime--just sloppy poor optics type of stuff.

A little off topic, but relevant b/c the russian gov't is again doing the same alex jonesy type of stuff about staged events, fake news, etc with regard to the innumerable violations of international prohibitions regarding targeting of civilians and civilian infrastructure.

[mjbabcock]

The NYTimes has incredible verification of atrocities by the Russians using ground video footage and private satellite photography that shows bodies, Russian presence, and triangulation of data to verify claims. The blood is on the Russians hands.

[thollandpe]

My patience is waning for the opposing viewpoints that happen to be pro-Assad, pro-Putin, and soiled with mis/dis-information.

There is little doubt that atrocities have been committed, are being committed, and will continue.

Land mines are sick:
Retreating Russians leave behind a new, more dangerous kind of land mine.

And those are really really sick.

Cluster bombs are sick:
Cluster Munitions and ‘Vacuum Bombs’: Russian Invasion Revives an Old Debate

Yeah I know that the US has backed out of treaties where we could have renounced these weapons. And that we have them in our arsenal. That is some serious bullshit. But that does not make their use in present circumstances less deplorable.

America's Relationship With Land Mines and Cluster Munitions

Maybe this is our opportunity to get the US Gummint to step up and sign those treaties. But right now there does not seem to be much of a question about war crimes, unless you’re “just asking questions” like Такер Карлсон.

[classtimesailer]

I truly am sorry about your friends Doug. This "conflict" is very real for you and I am not suggesting that it is fabricated.

[Will Neide]

I truly am sorry about your friends Doug. This "conflict" is very real for you and I am not suggesting that it is fabricated.

No, you haven't suggested the the war is fabricated, but you have suggested the atrocities are. Am I misinterpreting what you're dancing around? Why is conflict in quotes?

[bigbill]

I truly am sorry about your friends Doug. This "conflict" is very real for you and I am not suggesting that it is fabricated.

It's not a "conflict", it's a war. Russia invaded a sovereign nation that was protected by a non-aggression treaty after Ukraine gave up their nuclear arsenal. Ukraine did not provoke Russia, their mere existence was seen as a challenge to Putin. Now Russia is concentrating on eastern Ukraine, where the natural gas deposits are located. Now Russia has appeared (overwhelmingly likely, shown on satellite images) to commit war crimes by executing civilians.

I guess I don't understand the point you're trying to make in your posts and I don't want to assume I do. But it's a war.

[Mabouya]

I think the atrocities being reported in _________ and elsewhere in Ukraine could be a hoax.

I suggest a web search of James Le Mesurier if you seek info on the white helmets and scroll beyond the guardian pieces and Wikipedia.

1) Jeff, if you have something to say, why not have to guts to just come out and say it? Please quit this innuendo and dancing around your point.

2) The primary thing Syria and Ukraine have in common, other than the fact that they are horrible conflicts, is that Russia and Putin have been deeply involved in both.

[Marvinlungwitz]

And those upstart Finlanders certainly haven’t learned a thing about what flirting with NATO membership will get you!

*eye roll*