Ukraine

[thollandpe]

Apparently these labs are run by the DOD. These are from a Bulgarian reporter.

https://armswatch.com/category/weapo...gical-weapons/

https://armswatch.com/the-pentagon-bs-weapons/

Theory about U.S.-funded bioweapons labs in Ukraine is unfounded.

Quote from Colonel J’s link above to the NYT’s fact check:

“Prominent social media users and conservative voices have amplified a baseless theory promoted by Russian state media accusing the United States of funding biological weapons laboratories in Ukraine.

There is no evidence to support the claims, which President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine, the White House, the Pentagon and the State Department have all unequivocally denied.”

[j44ke]

The two articles linked by choke are both gone now.

[choke]

The two articles linked by choke are both gone now.

Hmmm.....the links in my post still work for me but if I click the links in the quoted post they don't work. They also still appear by going to the site https://armswatch.com/category/weapo...gical-weapons/

Regarding the veracity of the accusations, I make no claim. But the articles that I linked, written by a Bulgarian investigative journalist, are quite interesting IMO and more than a year old.

[j44ke]

Hmmm.....the links in my post still work for me but if I click the links in the quoted post they don't work. They also still appear by going to the site https://armswatch.com/category/weapo...gical-weapons/

Regarding the veracity of the accusations, I make no claim. But the articles that I linked, written by a Bulgarian investigative journalist, are quite interesting IMO and more than a year old.

Read the NYTimes article on veracity. These are not new claims. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/u...formation.html

I am not sure what the status of Bulgarian press independence is. I know that their government is defined by the EU (Bulgaria is an EU member country) as something like a "limited democracy". My impression from a friend who was a US journalist in Sofia was that Bulgaria was not a great place to investigate anything. At the time, he said it was basically a mafia state. But that was 10 years ago.

[choke]

Read the NYTimes article on veracity. These are not new claims. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/11/u...formation.html

I am not sure what the status of Bulgarian press independence is. I know that their government is defined by the EU (Bulgaria is an EU member country) as something like a "limited democracy". My impression from a friend who was a US journalist in Sofia was that Bulgaria was not a great place to investigate anything. At the time, he said it was basically a mafia state. But that was 10 years ago.

The story may be complete BS, I simply don't know. But I don't accept the Govt's denial as prima facie evidence. Of course they are going to deny it, it's not as though they would say "OK, the Russians are right, we have them". The US Govt has lied to us enough times and we know that they have experimented on US citizens in the past (Project 112), so I take everything with a huge grain of salt. There was once a time that I didn't feel that way but unfortunately that's no longer the case.

I'm sure that the majority here, and the population in general, will dismiss it out of hand. I'm a skeptic and I found what she wrote at least possible for the most part. Is that definitive proof? No. But then a Govt denial isn't definitive proof either. Nor is a more or less fluff article from the NYT.

I don't know about press freedom in Bulgaria either, but on the webpage she states

I am a Bulgarian journalist and Middle East correspondent. Over the last two years I have published a series of reports on weapons supplies to terrorists in Syria and Iraq. In December of 2016 while reporting on the battle of Aleppo I discovered and filmed underground warehouses full of heavy weapons with Bulgaria as their country of origin.

so she at least has been able to accuse her own Govt of wrongdoing. She seems to be good at backing up a lot of her assertions with documentation; I also read the story about the arms trafficking and I found it quite believable. But who knows how impartial she is?

This place is often an echo chamber and sometimes information or viewpoints that don't fit the official line are needed. I hope that at least one or two people here are open-minded enough to read what she wrote.

[Mark Kelly]

I would really like to see someone explain why the US DOD would outsource a top secret biological weapons program to a country right next to Russia and then, as the cherry on the cake, distribute it across dozens of facilities each of which is an extra security risk.

It makes about as much sense as the idea of paying a lab in China to develop a pandemic agent.

[Mabouya]

I would really like to see someone explain why the US DOD would outsource a top secret biological weapons program to a country right next to Russia and then, as the cherry on the cake, distribute it across dozens of facilities each of which is an extra security risk.

In today's Q-conspiracy world anything can be explained or written off as glibly as the original assertion. Nothing has to make sense or be consistent, as long as it serves the overall purpose it's intended to serve: Guns for anyone who wants them are good, therefore the Sandy Hook Elementary massacre never happened, Hillary Clinton and all Democrats are bad, therefore they have sex-slave children imprisoned in the basement of the Comet Ping Pong pizza, the 6 Jan Capitol fracas was an AntiFa false-flag operation, Bill Gates uses the Covid-91 vaccines to implant electronic chips in your body so he can track you. The list goes on and on, each story more bizarre than the previous one.

[vertical_doug]

I would really like to see someone explain why the US DOD would outsource a top secret biological weapons program to a country right next to Russia and then, as the cherry on the cake, distribute it across dozens of facilities each of which is an extra security risk.

It makes about as much sense as the idea of paying a lab in China to develop a pandemic agent.

It's just an application of the Big Lie. Keep repeating it often enough, in enough different disguises, and eventually people will believe it as true.

The fact that some of the evidence are emails from the WHO recommending to destroy specimens in case the labs fall to in an invasion, would lead to a more reasonable conclusion that this was standard biological research on virus/etc. Why would the DoD tell the WHO about our top secret bioweapons lab>

I would say Occam's Razor leads to the simplest explanation, but I have a friend in the rabbit hole who believes with the GOV the most complicated convoluted story is the true one.

[Peter Polack]

"Russia's claims about secret American biological warfare labs in Ukraine are taking root in the U.S. too, uniting COVID-19 conspiracy theorists, QAnon adherents and some supporters of ex-President Donald Trump."

You can read the entire Associated Press article HERE.

[monadnocky]

All domestic conspiracy theories (and perhaps all conspiracy theories involving all governments around the world, but I wouldn't know) involve two beliefs that I see as fundamentally, diametrically opposed to one another. These are the simultaneous beliefs that government is completely inept and incompetent, yet at the same time incredibly organized, secretive, and powerful. As a sub-tenet, it also demands the belief that hundreds to thousands of individuals can keep a secret that, if exposed, would be the greatest story in history (think 9/11 truthers- if this is true, where are the people who set the actually set the charges or otherwise participated in blowing the towers up?). I mean, in looking at real events where people WERE supposed to stay quiet or keep a secret, just about everyone blabs at the drop of a hat. The rewards for doing so are monumental.

A secret bioweapons lab in a country that, for the last ten years anyone could see would eventually be invaded by Russia? Sure. Makes total sense.

[j44ke]

The story may be complete BS, I simply don't know. But I don't accept the Govt's denial as prima facie evidence. Of course they are going to deny it, it's not as though they would say "OK, the Russians are right, we have them". The US Govt has lied to us enough times and we know that they have experimented on US citizens in the past (Project 112), so I take everything with a huge grain of salt. There was once a time that I didn't feel that way but unfortunately that's no longer the case.

I'm sure that the majority here, and the population in general, will dismiss it out of hand. I'm a skeptic and I found what she wrote at least possible for the most part. Is that definitive proof? No. But then a Govt denial isn't definitive proof either. Nor is a more or less fluff article from the NYT.

I don't know about press freedom in Bulgaria either, but on the webpage she states so she at least has been able to accuse her own Govt of wrongdoing. She seems to be good at backing up a lot of her assertions with documentation; I also read the story about the arms trafficking and I found it quite believable. But who knows how impartial she is?

This place is often an echo chamber and sometimes information or viewpoints that don't fit the official line are needed. I hope that at least one or two people here are open-minded enough to read what she wrote.

You can be skeptical all you want, as long as you are equivalently skeptical and don't privilege reporting from sources with "special knowledge" of something that somehow everyone else has missed. That's one of the oldest tropes in the information war bag of narrative tricks.

The heavy weapons with Bulgaria as their country of origin - how do you know? When I brought carpets through customs for my parents after they returned from Pakistan, I put labels on each carpet that said "Made in Pakistan" because if they said "Made in Afghanistan" they would have been seized. I made the labels at Staples.

Just because this story has all the bells and whistles of a good movie script, don't allow it preferential treatment. Believable isn't the same as true. And if you aren't sure it is true, why reproduce it and extend its reach? Especially when these websites are getting $$ from hits....

I'm not criticizing you here. Just suggesting skepticism is healthier when equally applied.

[thollandpe]

The story may be complete BS, I simply don't know…

I don't know about press freedom in Bulgaria either, but on the webpage she states…

She seems to be good at backing up a lot of her assertions with documentation; I also read the story about the arms trafficking and I found it quite believable. But who knows how impartial she is?

She’s also no stranger to disseminating pro-Russian disinformation. She is specifically mentioned here,

The Russian disinformation attack that poses a biological danger

Looks like she was also fired from one publication for another bogus story.

This place is often an echo chamber and sometimes information or viewpoints that don't fit the official line are needed. I hope that at least one or two people here are open-minded enough to read what she wrote.

At least one, I’m open minded enough. But after looking into it I’m left wondering why you’ve doubled and tripled, maybe even quadrupled down on a story that’s been fact-checked and found to be bullshit, and shown to be pro-Russian propaganda?

[GrantM]

You can be skeptical all you want, as long as you are equivalently skeptical and don't privilege reporting from sources with "special knowledge" of something that somehow everyone else has missed. That's one of the oldest tropes in the information war bag of narrative tricks.

That's exactly what is so crazy about these BS disinformation planted stories getting into the mainstream,
these so called do-gooder skeptics, and "just asking questions" Fox news hosts don't seem to pick up on the fact they're being used
as Useful Idiots.

Anyone with an ounce of sense recognizes that in a volatile situation there is an information war going on,
and the zone is flooded with shit. How naive do you have to be to not understand we live in a digital disinformation age?

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...023B28E87DD26F

[vertical_doug]

That's exactly what is so crazy about these BS disinformation planted stories getting into the mainstream,
these so called do-gooder skeptics, and "just asking questions" Fox news hosts don't seem to pick up on the fact they're being used
as Useful Idiots.

Anyone with an ounce of sense recognizes that in a volatile situation there is an information war going on,
and the zone is flooded with shit. How naive do you have to be to not understand we live in a digital disinformation age?

https://www.cambridge.org/core/books...023B28E87DD26F

It's another iteration of the big lie. Keep repeating it often enough, and lie big enough, and people will believe it true. Fox News and Tucker Carlson in particular are useful idiots.

Why would the US DoD tell the WHO about our clandestine bioweapons program in Ukraine? They wouldn't. How would the WHO know about a bio-research facility? Well, if it is doing legitimate bio-research and reporting to the WHO, they would. So when the WHO sends an email to the biolab to destroy specimens before a potential attack, it is SOP.

This whole thing is beyond stupid.

Part of this is China getting payback for Trump doing exactly this to them in Wuhan.

[j44ke]

Applicable perspective piece by Margaret Sullivan in the Washington Post - who was one of the NYTimes better public editors (a position NYTimes ended for ambiguous reasons):

https://www.washingtonpost.com/media...isinformation/

Sorry in advance if it is behind a paywall. Try dumping your cache etc. and see if that gets you there. Or use a VPN. Or subscribe to the Washington Post.

[rabo]

You think there is any effort going on to bypass Russian counter intelligence and get to the closest circle around Putin to give them full support in case of a coup?
That seems the only way this madness will stop.

[j44ke]

You think there is any effort going on to bypass Russian counter intelligence and get to the closest circle around Putin to give them full support in case of a coup?
That seems the only way this madness will stop.

If any of those people gave a crap about anyone other than themselves, they wouldn’t have stripped the country of assets to build their mountainous wealth. Plus without Putin, they are all at risk from many directions. But I wonder if the accuracy of US intelligence up to this point suggests they have someone at least with an ear to a door.

[classtimesailer]

If any of those people gave a crap about anyone other than themselves, they wouldn’t have stripped the country of assets to build their mountainous wealth...

Wasn't that stripping/privatizing advised and applauded by Western bankers and Wall Street types under Boris Yeltsin? From reported bits and pieces by a multi flavored media over the years, it seems President Putin has successfully discouraged anti-Russian sentiments from among the oligarchs. We can only hope.

IF you are a O. Stone fan, one of his documentaries has been made available on Rumble.com---Ukraine on Fire. I only watched it because it was removed from YouTube this week. Nothing new in it for most of us who have been paying attention but it is a nice recap.

[vertical_doug]

Wasn't that stripping/privatizing advised and applauded by Western bankers and Wall Street types under Boris Yeltsin? From reported bits and pieces by a multi flavored media over the years, it seems President Putin has successfully discouraged anti-Russian sentiments from among the oligarchs. We can only hope.

IF you are a O. Stone fan, one of his documentaries has been made available on Rumble.com---Ukraine on Fire. I only watched it because it was removed from YouTube this week. Nothing new in it for most of us who have been paying attention but it is a nice recap.

You can't lump it all together into one simple narrative. It was a much more complex process which had multiple failues.

The privatisation was not an asset strip. It was a process of distributing 40 rubles worth of vouchers to 148mm Russians in 1992-1994. The problem was after generations of living under communism, most Russians did not understand the vouchers. They were sold for cheap to people who could gather them up and eventually use them to gain control of the best state assets.

The real asset grab came in 1995-1996, and this was devised by Vladimir Potanin who was a Russian banker. For loaning money to the government, the companies were able to gain shares and control of state companies- Lukoil, Yukos, Norilsk Nickel etc etc are very cheap prices and the bidding process was rigged. This was under Yeltsin and this was not applauded by Ameircan Bankers. There was a lot of corruption under Yeltsin at this time.

Putin is different from Yeltsin, but in many respects the same. He stripped the wealth from Oligarchs who didn't support him, and sold the assets cheap to other oligarchs who would. Essentially, this is what happened to Mikhail Khordorkofsky when he had Yukos stripped and he was sent to prison. It also happen to others, one of which had to sell his shares in Norilsk Nickel to V. Potanin. (Many of these Oligarchs are just survivors with no political loyalty outside of serving power to keep their wealth safe)

Roman Abramovich is another. There is testimony in a trial about how they promised to support Yeltsin in the election in exchange for being awarded a lowball bid in a state asset. later, Abramovich was able to maintain his wealth under Putin. How remains a mystery to me....

Former Persident Medvedev is one of the largest land owners in Russia now. How'd he do that on a politicians salary? And our good civil servant Lavrov, is also worth a billion dollars.

There are no saints in this story.

If you want to read a good book on some of this, read Bill Browder's Red Notice. It's a true story and pretty shocking.
(It was his lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, who was jailed and died of injuries in 2009. And the reason we have the Magnitsky Act)

[robin3mj]

You can't lump it all together into one simple narrative. It was a much more complex process which had multiple failues.

The privatisation was not an asset strip. It was a process of distributing 40 rubles worth of vouchers to 148mm Russians in 1992-1994. The problem was after generations of living under communism, most Russians did not understand the vouchers. They were sold for cheap to people who could gather them up and eventually use them to gain control of the best state assets.

The real asset grab came in 1995-1996, and this was devised by Vladimir Potanin who was a Russian banker. For loaning money to the government, the companies were able to gain shares and control of state companies- Lukoil, Yukos, Norilsk Nickel etc etc are very cheap prices and the bidding process was rigged. This was under Yeltsin and this was not applauded by Ameircan Bankers. There was a lot of corruption under Yeltsin at this time.

Putin is different from Yeltsin, but in many respects the same. He stripped the wealth from Oligarchs who didn't support him, and sold the assets cheap to other oligarchs who would. Essentially, this is what happened to Mikhail Khordorkofsky when he had Yukos stripped and he was sent to prison. It also happen to others, one of which had to sell his shares in Norilsk Nickel to V. Potanin. (Many of these Oligarchs are just survivors with no political loyalty outside of serving power to keep their wealth safe)

Roman Abramovich is another. There is testimony in a trial about how they promised to support Yeltsin in the election in exchange for being awarded a lowball bid in a state asset. later, Abramovich was able to maintain his wealth under Putin. How remains a mystery to me....

Former Persident Medvedev is one of the largest land owners in Russia now. How'd he do that on a politicians salary? And our good civil servant Lavrov, is also worth a billion dollars.

There are no saints in this story.

If you want to read a good book on some of this, read Bill Browder's Red Notice. It's a true story and pretty shocking.
(It was his lawyer, Sergei Magnitsky, who was jailed and died of injuries in 2009. And the reason we have the Magnitsky Act)

I would add Putin’s People to the reading list after Red Notice. Less of a page turner but a helpful primer in how these guys amassed their assets and influence.