Terrible mistake in Afghanistan.

[Corso]

While I am sorry that you have lost people close to you in these wars, and I understand that you would like to feel that those loses have been in the pursuit of a worthy cause, the fact remains that the causes these people lost their lives for were not worthy.

Until you and others in your country accept that and both hold your government to account for these decisions and not allow it to make the same kinds of decisions again and again, until you break out of this form of patriotic denial, you and others are going to continue to lose relatives and friends.

Please don't try to make these statements out to be disrespectful to those who lost their lives, because it isn't. My disrespect is for those who made (and continue to make) the decision to send them to their deaths. And again I will say that this is not an issue that is isolated solely in the US, it is applicable to the rest of us in the western world too. I'm a dual Italian/Australian citizen who lives in Germany. All three of those countries have basically been there alongside the US through these same conflicts, and my criticism is for those governments too.

The rest of the world has an opinion about the US because the reach of US power compels us to have one. The decisions that your government makes have significant and real impacts on our lives, directly or indirectly. As such, on the whole the rest of the world is far less ignorant about the US than the US is about us.

No one has stopped you from voicing your opinion in this thread as far as I can see. You are allowed to hold whatever belief you want to hold. That isn't the same thing as being free from criticism or challenge. That isn't the same thing as being called upon to justify your beliefs. As far as I can see you are the only person who is telling others that they aren't allowed to have an opinion.

Rob,

Overall, nicely put. Thank you.

No patriotic denial here. I'm aware of our mistakes as well as accomplishments. I thought going into Afghanistan would indeed be a huge mistake. But once in, I will always support our troops.

It would be nice for some to appreciate what the USA has done for the world, vs the relentless criticism. My original point about Covid aide to Brazil: a positive gift that was quickly seen as an entitlement.

Our elected politicians don't always reflect the will of the people they represent. Once in Washington, the bigger game of keeping power and backroom deals begins. And that is a total shame that we own.

One could debate the "fact" as you say, that the causes were not worthy, and the relatives of those lost in the upcoming anniversary of the 911 (among other) terrorist attacks may not feel the same way you do.

Again, I thank and respect ALL the countries who have sent troops & aid.

[beeatnik]

Pal sent me this yesterday.

memez.jpg

I only care to be right on one issue.

[ABiCi]

Rob,
One could debate the "fact" as you say, that the causes were not worthy, and the relatives of those lost in the upcoming anniversary of the 911 (among other) terrorist attacks may not feel the same way you do.

Around 2500 US soldiers died in Afghanistan. Another 1000 soldiers from other countries who took part in the invasion and occupation died too. More than 20,000 US soldiers were wounded. Around a quarter of a million Afghans died. And to what end? Can you explain to me how the war in Afghanistan offers anything to those who were close to people lost in the 9/11? Why would it bring them any comfort? It just brought more death and destruction.

I don't understand how you can at the same time say that you thought the war was a mistake from the beginning, but also think that it could be considered to have been a worthy cause.

[colker]

There's been a lot of expert opinion here and none of it has covered the fact that in excess of ten thousand. U.S. citizens have been left outside Kabul Airport in a wild country with absolutely fuck all being done about getting them home safely. What a clustershambles. Any war machine can spring into action at essentially the drop of a hat but eight months isn't long enough to gather your own nationals? Not to mention all of the locals that were promised protection.

Those were the points of my first post. No one disagrees that the US military should leave, eventually: it´s how things were done.

[lumpy]

There's been a lot of expert opinion here and none of it has covered the fact that in excess of ten thousand. U.S. citizens have been left outside Kabul Airport in a wild country with absolutely fuck all being done about getting them home safely. What a clustershambles. Any war machine can spring into action at essentially the drop of a hat but eight months isn't long enough to gather your own nationals? Not to mention all of the locals that were promised protection.

My understanding is we have taken almost 28,000 people out in the last week.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-58299804

[lumpy]

There's been a lot of expert opinion here and none of it has covered the fact that in excess of ten thousand. U.S. citizens have been left outside Kabul Airport in a wild country with absolutely fuck all being done about getting them home safely. What a clustershambles. Any war machine can spring into action at essentially the drop of a hat but eight months isn't long enough to gather your own nationals? Not to mention all of the locals that were promised protection.

Update: Some 10,900 airlifted out in a 12-hour span today. 6,660 of them were on just 15 military flights. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...ht/8237288002/

[Corso]

I don't understand how you can at the same time say that you thought the war was a mistake from the beginning, but also think that it could be considered to have been a worthy cause.

Mistake: We didn't learn enough from the Soviet invasion. If they (with zero rules of engagement) "lost", why would we do any better?

Worthy cause: Was it not a worthy cause to have women be treated as people and not as goats? Woman's rights were vastly improved while the country was occupied by the Multi-national force.

What do they have to look forward to? 13 year olds traded to old men as sex slaves. Gang rapes. No education. No rights. Back to the Middle Ages.

Talk to me in a month about how women (and homosexuals) are treated by the Taliban.

While not the original intent of the occupation, it did become IMO, a worthy and noble cause.

[ABiCi]

Mistake: We didn't learn enough from the Soviet invasion. If they (with zero rules of engagement) "lost", why would we do any better?

Worthy cause: Was it not a worthy cause to have women be treated as people and not as goats? Woman's rights were vastly improved while the country was occupied by the Multi-national force.

What do they have to look forward to? 13 year olds traded to old men as sex slaves. Gang rapes. No education. No rights. Back to the Middle Ages.

Talk to me in a month about how women (and homosexuals) are treated by the Taliban.

While not the original intent of the occupation, it did become IMO, a worthy and noble cause.

Come on, man.

The war in Afghanistan was never about the rights of women, children and homosexuals. Never.

Your good nature and empathy have been intentionally manipulated by CIA talking points.

https://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_repor...ar_2010afghani

Cynical rationalisations are not the same as worthy causes.

This war was a political decision undertaken in order to re-establish the perception of US strength in the face of an attack that had made the country look weak and vulnerable, a knee-jerk reaction to appease the sentiment within the country that the 9/11 attack demanded a response in the form of retributive force.

Afghanistan under the Taliban was, and no doubt will again be, a terrible place. A quarter of a million people have died over the last 20 years, trillions of dollars have been spent, in order to ultimately change nothing. This was predicable, as you yourself acknowledge. Why you would then buy in to these narratives used by those who got you in to the mess in the first place in order to try and scrape together some semblance of justification for it all is beyond me.

[Peter Polack]

Come on, man.... for it all is beyond me.

I have to agree with Corso and disagree with you.

The perpetrators of the 9/11 had to be brought to justice, much like any other crime. But assigning responsibility to a finite number of perpetrators was all but impossible, as is attempting to wipe out an entire, widespread terrorist group. That's why you have to set a limit on your goals.

Advancing the safety and education of woman is part of the "hearts and minds" portion of war, because war is not just bullets and bodies but a multi-pronged approach at culture and regime change, hopefully for the better. It's much more than us non-military educated people comprehend.

By changing the landscape of "13 year olds traded to old men as sex slaves. Gang rapes. No education. No rights" albeit temporarily, we have planted the seeds of freedom and can only hope that one day they bear fruit.

The certain way to failure is to do nothing. The U.S. did SOMETHING.

[Corso]

Come on, man.
Your good nature and empathy have been intentionally manipulated by CIA talking points.

You asked a question. I answered. Stop trying to "win" an argument that isn't there.

[theflashunc]

I have to agree with Corso and disagree with you.

The perpetrators of the 9/11 had to be brought to justice, much like any other crime. But assigning responsibility to a finite number of perpetrators was all but impossible, as is attempting to wipe out an entire, widespread terrorist group. That's why you have to set a limit on your goals.

Advancing the safety and education of woman is part of the "hearts and minds" portion of war, because war is not just bullets and bodies but a multi-pronged approach at culture and regime change, hopefully for the better. It's much more than us non-military educated people comprehend.

By changing the landscape of "13 year olds traded to old men as sex slaves. Gang rapes. No education. No rights" albeit temporarily, we have planted the seeds of freedom and can only hope that one day they bear fruit.

The certain way to failure is to do nothing. The U.S. did SOMETHING.

The AUMF was none of those things. Absurdly broad and poorly written, it and the 2002 resolution have been the pretext for feckless generation of military boondoggles. The goals in Afghanistan were never clearly laid out for what victory would look like, other than "get the bad guys." Who we did. In another country, a decade later.

I do not see how any reasonable person can look at 20 years, $2 trillion spent in a country, then say with a straight face "Well maybe one day this will bear fruit" and view that as some kind of positive. Pollyanna even looks at this viewpoint and wonders if toning it down a bit would be the right approach.

There were other ways to bring Al Qaeda to justice, there were other ways to hold the Taliban accountable for harboring Al Qaeda. There were other ways to bring real justice for 9/11. Instead we got this.

[colker]

I have to agree with Corso and disagree with you.

The perpetrators of the 9/11 had to be brought to justice, much like any other crime. But assigning responsibility to a finite number of perpetrators was all but impossible, as is attempting to wipe out an entire, widespread terrorist group. That's why you have to set a limit on your goals.

Advancing the safety and education of woman is part of the "hearts and minds" portion of war, because war is not just bullets and bodies but a multi-pronged approach at culture and regime change, hopefully for the better. It's much more than us non-military educated people comprehend.

By changing the landscape of "13 year olds traded to old men as sex slaves. Gang rapes. No education. No rights" albeit temporarily, we have planted the seeds of freedom and can only hope that one day they bear fruit.

The certain way to failure is to do nothing. The U.S. did SOMETHING.

Sorry but any victim, anyone understands war.

"But assigning responsibility to a finite number of perpetrators was all but impossible"... why not?
"as is attempting to wipe out an entire, widespread terrorist group." Sure... Hammas and Hezbollah are still going on and that´s why the Israelis adopts th cruel tactics of punishing civilians who helps them. This is as old as it gets.

"The certain way to failure is to do nothing. The U.S. did SOMETHING." Yes. But by leaving behind those who helped change the moral landscape in Afhganistan, the US is also leaving an image of failure behind.

[ABiCi]

I have to agree with Corso and disagree with you.

The perpetrators of the 9/11 had to be brought to justice, much like any other crime. But assigning responsibility to a finite number of perpetrators was all but impossible, as is attempting to wipe out an entire, widespread terrorist group. That's why you have to set a limit on your goals.

How many of the 240,000 Afghans killed in the war were responsible in any way for the 9/11 attack?

The Taliban didn't do 9/11. The Afghans didn't do 9/11. Al Qaeda did. You don't have to invade a country, overthrow its government and occupy it for two decades because that's where a small terrorist group (basically all of whom were not from that country) who organised and perpetrated an attack happened to be based at the time.

Advancing the safety and education of woman is part of the "hearts and minds" portion of war, because war is not just bullets and bodies but a multi-pronged approach at culture and regime change, hopefully for the better. It's much more than us non-military educated people comprehend.

How anyone in 2021 can use phrases like "hearts and minds" and "regime change" unironically is beyond me. These are your government's buzzwords for foreign policies which have been an abject failure for some time. No wonder they keep getting away with it when they have compliant citizens such as yourself who lap it up regardless of the cost in both lives and dollars.

By changing the landscape of "13 year olds traded to old men as sex slaves. Gang rapes. No education. No rights" albeit temporarily, we have planted the seeds of freedom and can only hope that one day they bear fruit.

The certain way to failure is to do nothing. The U.S. did SOMETHING.

You went in, killed a quarter of a million people, spent $2 trillion, only for the country to arrive back literally where it was when you started, but at least you did something?

Planted seeds for freedom? This is truly delusional.

[ABiCi]

You asked a question. I answered. Stop trying to "win" an argument that isn't there.

I asked a few questions. I note that you chose to skim over these ones: Can you explain to me how the war in Afghanistan offers anything to those who were close to people lost in the 9/11? Why would it bring them any comfort?

[bigbill]

I asked a few questions. I note that you chose to skim over these ones: Can you explain to me how the war in Afghanistan offers anything to those who were close to people lost in the 9/11? Why would it bring them any comfort?

I deployed a week after 9/11 on a carrier that headed straight over to the north Arabian Sea. The Taliban was harboring AQ and in the first two months of OEF, the Taliban was a military unit with AQ folks in the mix. They had ex-Soviet military vehicles, tanks, and helicopter gunships. We had a five carrier group (US x2, British, Italian, and French) launching airstrikes around the clock which removed the Taliban's ability to fight. The Taliban and AQ took refuge in the mountains for the winter.

I was on the bridge during the early airstrikes, and for a week, Ted Olsen was there as well. I think he took comfort in the actions against the people who masterminded the attacks that killed his wife.

I'm sure this will be met with some cynicism, but twenty years ago, it mattered. We spent five months, seven days a week, launching airstrikes over Afghanistan via Pakistani airspace. Did mission creep make us lose focus, it did. But the first six months after 9/11, our actions mattered.

[BBB]

The problem here then becomes one of an eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Without debating the whys and wherefores of the military action, air strikes for five months, seven days a week is likely going to kill people other than Taliban fighters or AQ members. Hence the Afghan equivalent of Ted Olsen who losses his wife in these air strikes might be equally comforted by retaliation down the track, which of course in time happened on the ground in Afghanistan.

It would have been easier, cheaper and far less destructive for the Taliban to hand bin Laden (and others) over to a neutral third party and for them to tried somewhere other than a US court. It was done after WW11 for far more serious crimes (a couple of planes and 3000 dead versus 5 million deliberately slaughtered) when the alternative was shooting the ring leaders and I fail to see why something similar could not have happened here. Tyrants and mass murders look far less tyrannical and murderous when they are given due process and they are ultimately put to the sword (legally speaking) in a public forum.

[Peter Polack]

It would have been easier, cheaper and far less destructive for the Taliban to hand bin Laden (and others) over to a neutral third party and for them to tried somewhere other than a US court.

I believe it was explained elsewhere in this thread; we tried negotiating with the Taliban to turn over OBL but we could not reach an agreement. Notice that I didn't specify whose demands were more unreasonable. As far as I was concerned, the Taliban really had no bargaining leverage because they didn't have the firepower to repel our invasion.

[Corso]

I asked a few questions. I note that you chose to skim over these ones: Can you explain to me how the war in Afghanistan offers anything to those who were close to people lost in the 9/11? Why would it bring them any comfort?

I'm done with providing you with an excuse for your anti-us manifesto. Just keep posting how you feel, and stop trying to justify your political views by disguising them as a discussion.

You don't need me to be the springboard for your replies. You do keep saying things like "beyond me, delusional," and accuse those who don't agree with you as "buying the propaganda." You are completely convinced that you are correct and others are not. My answers won't be read or understood by you, so leave it as it is.

I'm sure with the 911 anniversary coming up, there are other forums that are populated with 911 survivors and families who lost loved ones. Why don't you take your all-knowing self to them, and post your all knowing statements and questions on those outlets, and ask the people directly affected what brings them comfort?

Feeling bold? Do that and report back to us your results.

[jclay]

https://williamblum.org/

I've read a few eye opening books from Chalmers Johnson and Noam Chomsky but none of William Blum's, only articles on his website.

Abridged intro: William Blum left the State Department in 1967, abandoning his aspiration of becoming a Foreign Service Officer, because of his opposition to what the United States was doing in Vietnam. He then became one of the founders and editors of the Washington Free Press, the first “alternative” newspaper in the capital.

Mr. Blum had been a freelance journalist in the United States, Europe and South America. His stay in Chile in 1972-3, writing about the Allende government’s “socialist experiment” and its tragic overthrow in a CIA-designed coup, instilled in him a personal involvement and an even more heightened interest in what his government was doing in various parts of the world.

In the mid-1970’s, he worked in London with former CIA officer Philip Agee and his associates on their project of exposing CIA personnel and their misdeeds.

His book on U.S. foreign policy, Killing Hope: U.S. Military and CIA Interventions Since World War II, first published in 1995 and updated since, has received international acclaim. Noam Chomsky called it “far and away the best book on the topic.” https://williamblum.org/books/killing-hope/

Here's a list of US interventions from 1945 to 1999: https://thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/...ns_WBlumZ.html

Attempted governmental overthrows: https://williamblum.org/essays/read/...he-master-list

Here is just one data point but for those who wonder why Iran has been a little scratchy wrt USA for deades, check out our 1953 actions over there...not that Operation Ajax is the only reason (we have been busy little beavers) but, somehow, I think if another country did that to us, and then continued to meddle with us and others in our part of the world, pitting one against the other, we wouldn't be too pleased; and we'd probably have a long memory if our Civil War battle flag folks are any indication.

It continues on the website. Sadly, and to our detriment, those who most need to read this sort of stuff, won't.

[bigbill]

The problem here then becomes one of an eye for an eye makes the world go blind. Without debating the whys and wherefores of the military action, air strikes for five months, seven days a week is likely going to kill people other than Taliban fighters or AQ members. Hence the Afghan equivalent of Ted Olsen who losses his wife in these air strikes might be equally comforted by retaliation down the track, which of course in time happened on the ground in Afghanistan.

It would have been easier, cheaper and far less destructive for the Taliban to hand bin Laden (and others) over to a neutral third party and for them to tried somewhere other than a US court. It was done after WW11 for far more serious crimes (a couple of planes and 3000 dead versus 5 million deliberately slaughtered) when the alternative was shooting the ring leaders and I fail to see why something similar could not have happened here. Tyrants and mass murders look far less tyrannical and murderous when they are given due process and they are ultimately put to the sword (legally speaking) in a public forum.

Saying what should have happened twenty years later is pointless. To Godwin this, we should have killed Hitler in the 30's before he began his reign of terror. I'm sure there were Monday morning strategists saying that in the 50s and 60s. Not sure of your 5 million number, here is a link to casualties since 2001. https://apnews.com/article/middle-ea...130cd683e1a38f . Many Afghan civilian casualties were the result of Taliban traveling with their families. Many Taliban strongholds or camps were bombed or the targets of cruise missiles.

Bin Laden was never going to be captured alive or allowed to be tried. To compare it to the end of WW2 is not accurate. Germans surrendered when their cause was lost, some committed suicide and some arranged surrender. The Germans had lost, other than a few pockets of resistance after the war, the main focus was rebuilding. The Taliban was never interested in improving Afghanistan because it took power from them. You can see it now in daily videos coming out the country showing the beating of women and girls who had the audacity to read.

I've stated earlier that nation building was mission creep, but we crept and now we're pulling the rug and leaving our friends to be tortured and executed. It's a moral dilemma and I believe we're in the wrong for doing it in this manner. A small force could have maintained the peace and advances in Afghanistan culture. In the last five years, we've lost 100 service members in Afghanistan, many due to vehicle accidents and training incidents. So far this year we've lost over 500 from suicide in the US. Just some perspective.