Terrible mistake in Afghanistan.

[vertical_doug]

Pakistan is the real threat and the US cannot squash them lik it did in Iraq: Pakistan has nukes and armed forces harboring sympathies towards muslim fundamentalism.

Actually we can squash them. The issue is it just has a higher cost in American lives and the potential for a nuclear strike somewhere- whether US homeland or India. The problem is America is trying to sell itself painless war.
and then the question remains what are we fighting for?

[sk_tle]

Actually we can squash them. The issue is it just has a higher cost in American lives and the potential for a nuclear strike somewhere- whether US homeland or India. The problem is America is trying to sell itself painless war.
and then the question remains what are we fighting for?

Like most of the wars USA entered, for the stakeholders of the military industry/ defense contractors who spend a lot of money to put some presidents in their seat. Basically trading tax payer money and soldiers live to enrich an elite and create some jobs.

I know soldiers, former soldiers and their families like to keep the idea that they serve a nation and bigger honest interests but this is just a naive way to present it and make it less terrible and justify the horror they saw, endured or did.

[colker]

Actually we can squash them. The issue is it just has a higher cost in American lives and the potential for a nuclear strike somewhere- whether US homeland or India. The problem is America is trying to sell itself painless war.
and then the question remains what are we fighting for?

The US could squash them militarly but ... what would happen next? Most likely an extreme fundamentalist anti west anti US nuclear Pakhistan which would make ISIS Syria look like a rainy day in Disneyland troubles compared. The US bets their chips on the secular side of the coin of the Pakhistani forces: any agressive act from americans and the balance tips towards the fundamentalist side of the military. Pakhistan leaderships know this and play it to their advantage. OBL was captured there and the USA made no retaliations.. makes you think, doesn´t it? There are many ways to fight any war.

[colker]

The problem is America is trying to sell itself painless war.
and then the question remains what are we fighting for?

Empires are always at war nevermind an empire which constantly asserted it´s markets and flow of commodities through military actions. BUT... there is an amrican ideology at play. Since the cold war ended, it became harder to figure out what idea exactly is the US military action implementing when invades countries like Iraq or Afhganistan. I don´t believe it´s only about $$ in the pockets of a malign elite. America is an idea unlike the Brittish Empire and very much like the old USSR. The american idea is part a crusade belief that the world is a bad place and America needs to correct it militarly. The other half of the idea is businness.

[vertical_doug]

Float to the top , sink to the bottom, everything in the middle is just a churn.

[Bob Ross]

Way back in the late 1970s/early 1980s I heard some stand-up comedian whose name I've long forgotten go on a political tirade, and he had one line that keeps bubbling up into my consciousness every ~5 or 10 years...right on schedule, this thread reminded me of it. And I gotta say, while I understand how morally reprehensible this sentiment is, I have a hard time thinking of a diplomatic solution that would be as effective.

He said (I'm paraphrasing) "Until the United States uses its copious nuclear arsenal to turn the entire Middle East into one giant fused silica parking lot, we will never achieve world peace."

Yeah, I know, I'm going to hell. :::shrugs:::

[colker]

Way back in the late 1970s/early 1980s I heard some stand-up comedian whose name I've long forgotten go on a political tirade, and he had one line that keeps bubbling up into my consciousness every ~5 or 10 years...right on schedule, this thread reminded me of it. And I gotta say, while I understand how morally reprehensible this sentiment is, I have a hard time thinking of a diplomatic solution that would be as effective.

He said (I'm paraphrasing) "Until the United States uses its copious nuclear arsenal to turn the entire Middle East into one giant fused silica parking lot, we will never achieve world peace."

Yeah, I know, I'm going to hell. :::shrugs:::

Well.. the guys there say the same about the US. Who is right?

[Corso]

Nor i will thank vaccines when it´s a measure that helps stop virus contamination everywhere including the US.

Nice. My country GIVES your country millions of dollars, to save Brazilian lives foremost, and a simple "thank you" is out of your comprehension .

Everyone wants and demands and thinks they are entitled to American aid, paid for by American taxes, and are quick to criticize and bite the hand that GIVES them millions.

"Silly notion": Yes, everyone is entitled to post an opinion. But (MY OPINION) if you have no skin in the game, you're just farting in the wind.



Why bring up Trump? He's not in charge now, so get over him. President Biden in now the Commander-in-chief. At least point your finger in the right direction.

[ABiCi]

Way back in the late 1970s/early 1980s I heard some stand-up comedian whose name I've long forgotten go on a political tirade, and he had one line that keeps bubbling up into my consciousness every ~5 or 10 years...right on schedule, this thread reminded me of it. And I gotta say, while I understand how morally reprehensible this sentiment is, I have a hard time thinking of a diplomatic solution that would be as effective.

He said (I'm paraphrasing) "Until the United States uses its copious nuclear arsenal to turn the entire Middle East into one giant fused silica parking lot, we will never achieve world peace."

Yeah, I know, I'm going to hell. :::shrugs:::

Here is an idea. Instead of dropping your nuclear arsenal on the region, which certainly wouldn't be an effective way of achieving world peace by any stretch of the imagination and would only plunge the entire world into nuclear conflict, you guys instead just stop propping up and arming regimes or groups like the Shah, like Saddam Hussein, like the Taliban and Al Qaeda...?

Of course the region was far from free of conflict before US imperialism entered the scene, but the past 70 odd years have your fingerprints all over it. Don't pretend that you guys can be part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

[fastupslowdown]

There were so many errors in Afghanistan, starting with George W who got distracted by Iraq, followed by an Obama who created huge strategic blunders by giving the military less manpower than their lowest request and pre-announcing a withdrawal date which only encouraged them to avoid combat , hide in the countryside or stay in Pakistan protected territory till the Americans wound down , and then followed by Trump who negotiated a terrible deal where he even barred the government of Afghanistan from participating and pushed for the release of Taliban prisoners who simply rejoined the fight. All of this may not even matter when one considers Pakistan was aiding an abetting the Taliban and there was simply no chance the U.S. would increase the theater of operations and take the war the Pakistan. There was simply no way to wipe the Taliban out.

Of course the history of U.S. nation building rarely if ever ends well but the U.S. was stuck. They had some early success going after the Taliban but there was never an exit plan. If they had left years ago the Taliban was always going to come back and fill the vacuum.

As far as the latest pull-out not only was the U.S. military surprised but the Taliban itself was at how quickly they took over once Biden gave the pull-out. Seems the only people who saw this as a potential was the CIA. Biden really did have a weak hand here. Trump had signed a deal for the U.S. to get out, a deal he bragged about as irreversible not just two months ago. The cease fire was about to end and while the U.S. could renegotiate if the Taliban weren't honoring the deal they certainly would have started going after American soldiers again and with only about 1500 troops in Afghanistan the U.S. could not have fought back. The choice was either pulling out or greatly ramping up once again. Biden didn't believe in the mission and neither did the American people.

There's a good argument this was always going to be messy. Once it was seen that the U.S. was evacuating panic would have ensued and we'd probably be back where we are now. Any large organized withdrawal would have required retaking huge parts of the country and a huge commitment of new troops. Some of the optics we are seeing of the Taliban capturing U.S. weapons left behind is not nearly as bad as it seems. Blackhawk helicopters were introduced in the 1970's, and the Brazilian air transports are not state of the art equipment either. Perhaps some things could have been done better but its far from clear that's a certainty

[Peter Polack]

Some of the optics we are seeing of the Taliban capturing U.S. weapons left behind is not nearly as bad as it seems. Blackhawk helicopters were introduced in the 1970's, and the Brazilian air transports are not state of the art equipment either. Perhaps some things could have been done better but its far from clear that's a certainty

The captured weapons will likely be of limited use. Spare parts will not be available, and since so few Afghans can read (it's said only 3% of the Afghan army could read at a 3rd grade level) they likely lack the intelligence to operate and maintain helicopters, let alone smaller, less complicated vehicles, equipment, and weapons.

[Corso]

Here is an idea. Instead of dropping your nuclear arsenal on the region, which certainly wouldn't be an effective way of achieving world peace by any stretch of the imagination and would only plunge the entire world into nuclear conflict, you guys instead just stop propping up and arming regimes or groups like the Shah, like Saddam Hussein, like the Taliban and Al Qaeda...?

Of course the region was far from free of conflict before US imperialism entered the scene, but the past 70 odd years have your fingerprints all over it. Don't pretend that you guys can be part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

And include the US stops sending ALL aide to other countries. Period.

Let's go for bout 5 years, use all the money and manpower we send all around the world when asked (and yes, we're always ASKED for help - by all you have mentioned above)--and see who fills the void.

We have plenty of issues in our own country that our time/money could and should help.

But enough of my fantasy world...I believe a large majority of the world is thankful for our role in history, vs a few who may not appreciate what we as a nation have done for others.

[colker]

Nice. My country GIVES your country millions of dollars, to save Brazilian lives foremost, and a simple "thank you" is out of your comprehension .

Everyone wants and demands and thinks they are entitled to American aid, paid for by American taxes, and are quick to criticize and bite the hand that GIVES them millions.

"Silly notion": Yes, everyone is entitled to post an opinion. But (MY OPINION) if you have no skin in the game, you're just farting in the wind.



Why bring up Trump? He's not in charge now, so get over him. President Biden in now the Commander-in-chief. At least point your finger in the right direction.

Ooooh..cry me a river. It´s called international cooperation and not charity. You don´t even know how the american health industry makes money in a crisis like covid and how it impacts your economy. Do some homework, hard work, before wasting time w/ false moral conumdrums.
Since you could not miss the opportunity to show your sympathy towards Biden, i brought Trump´s work in this disaster.

[colker]

And include the US stops sending ALL aide to other countries. Period.

Let's go for bout 5 years, use all the money and manpower we send all around the world when asked (and yes, we're always ASKED for help - by all you have mentioned above)--and see who fills the void.

We have plenty of issues in our own country that our time/money could and should help.

But enough of my fantasy world...I believe a large majority of the world is thankful for our role in history, vs a few who may not appreciate what we as a nation have done for others.

We are not thankfull for Vietnam, the support to dictatorships and torture in Chile, Argentina and Brasil. The mistakes in Lybia, Iraq and Afhganistan. The destruction of the worlds environment. Keep crying over our lack of gratitude. We are not asking for your help anymore: China fills the gap everywhere.

[ABiCi]

And include the US stops sending ALL aide to other countries. Period.

Let's go for bout 5 years, use all the money and manpower we send all around the world when asked (and yes, we're always ASKED for help - by all you have mentioned above)--and see who fills the void.

We have plenty of issues in our own country that our time/money could and should help.

But enough of my fantasy world...I believe a large majority of the world is thankful for our role in history, vs a few who may not appreciate what we as a nation have done for others.

This is a total non sequitur. I have no idea why you think that the argument against western (not just US) military action and imperialism has any relation to western obligations to provide international aid.

The US has more than enough money to look after its own citizens AND provide the kind of aid to other countries that serves all the world's interests, it just needs to shift its policy priorities. It can start with not putting trillions of dollars for overseas military action in to the Pentagon, which is basically a totally unaccountable black hole. Then the US could follow the rest of the developed world and provide decent public education and health services AND still support poorer countries who need it. In the absence of that aid, all you will see is more conflict in the world, which isn't in anyone's interests except for those who profit from such conflict.

The US has also made much of the money it gives back to the developing world by exploiting those same countries. It is the least it can do. Same goes for all other developed nations.

That factions within Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan etc. have at various times turned to the US for military support doesn't justify the US's decision to go in to those countries in ways that have only exacerbated the problems. Going in to prop up violent dictators and terrorists has a pretty consistent history of backfiring.

The US has done many great things in history, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be criticised for the terrible things it has done. What is gained by trying to deflect these legitimate criticisms? I really don't understand this kind of blind patriotism. What is in it for you?

[defspace]

Geopolitically-knowledgeable Salonistas,
I was under the impression that a fair amount of US foreign aid is given with the intent of providing future leverage.
Year 1: Give aid
Year 2: Give aid
Year 3: "do XYZ or we'll stop giving aid"

Did I just make that up?

[jimcav]

Geopolitically-knowledgeable Salonistas,
I was under the impression that a fair amount of US foreign aid is given with the intent of providing future leverage.
Year 1: Give aid
Year 2: Give aid
Year 3: "do XYZ or we'll stop giving aid"

Did I just make that up?

Reminds me of the Welcome Back Kotter episode of how the "free knish" led to his knish addiction

[bigbill]

Geopolitically-knowledgeable Salonistas,
I was under the impression that a fair amount of US foreign aid is given with the intent of providing future leverage.
Year 1: Give aid
Year 2: Give aid
Year 3: "do XYZ or we'll stop giving aid"

Did I just make that up?

We expect some loyalty from the aid we provide. Maybe in the form of allowing US ships to stop there, joint military exercises, exchange of intelligence, and future purchases of US goods. I was in Montenegro in 2007 and the citizens were very pro-American because of the efforts of the Clinton administration during the Balkan Wars. The US paid salaries of police, fire, postal, etc to maintain infrastructure. USAID built water treatment plants. Montenegro is one of the few countries where an American in trouble should actively seek out the police.

[Corso]

We are not thankfull for Vietnam, the support to dictatorships and torture in Chile, Argentina and Brasil. The mistakes in Lybia, Iraq and Afhganistan. The destruction of the worlds environment. Keep crying over our lack of gratitude. We are not asking for your help anymore: China fills the gap everywhere.

But, you ARE asking for our help. And so does everyone else. If you believe China is a better "big brother" you are a bit naive.

[Corso]

And Colker, there are Solon members who served in Vietnam and elsewhere. Try to muster up a little respect for them.